Re-balance Assault Shuttles

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Weidekuh
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Re-balance Assault Shuttles

Post by Weidekuh » Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:17 pm

Hopefully it's already on your schedule.

Playing a game where i started with 3 systems, 0 tech, 0 money against fully buffed AI (hard, 10 tech, 10 systems, 1 mio) i just steamroll their systems with assault shuttle fleets. i don't even need combat fleets.

example: attacking with starting tech assault shuttles with green beamers as only weapons against a 2 planet system size 5 and 6, fully developed worlds with 4 stations, 12 drone sats (!) and a combat fleet. -> attacking losses: 5 assault shuttles, not a single cruiser lost. AI losses are 1 planet per combat round... system lost after 2 turns.
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Nall White
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Re: Re-balance Assault Shuttles

Post by Nall White » Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:08 pm

Shuttles are fine. That's an issue with the AI not defending properly.
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Weidekuh
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Re: Re-balance Assault Shuttles

Post by Weidekuh » Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:28 pm

Nall White wrote:Shuttles are fine. That's an issue with the AI not defending properly.


Like every possible ship/drone in this system attacking my fleet not defending properly ? you can launch the shuttles from pretty far away. without some very dedicated PD-ships being exactly on the right spot, when the shuttles fly by you have no chance to defend. and then it took the shuttles only a few seconds to kill a planet...
If it would be a system without any defense i would agree with you. but have you read my example? why would you ever tech for any other planetary assault weapons like Siege Drivers or Plagues? don't forget it is a starting tech.
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Heart of Storm
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Re: Re-balance Assault Shuttles

Post by Heart of Storm » Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:35 pm

Zerging with assault shuttle carriers is pretty hard to counter for the AI, as a human player you only stand a chance if you have a combat fleet on station, and even then you're gonna take losses if its a small system and the opponent IMMEDIATELY deploys his entire load of 36+ assault shuttles.

Still, nerfbats scare me, I'd hate for Assault Shuttles to be adjusted to the point where theirs no benefit to using them over normal arnament.. maybe reducing the HP of standard assault shuttles so that most small mounts can mop them up if they're launched from too far away?

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Nall White
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Re: Re-balance Assault Shuttles

Post by Nall White » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:39 pm

This issue is the AI not yet having the ability to defend its systems early game. Before we talk about nerfing anything. We should wait for the AI to continue to improve.
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Tarrak
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Re: Re-balance Assault Shuttles

Post by Tarrak » Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:43 pm

Nall White wrote:This issue is the AI not yet having the ability to defend its systems early game. Before we talk about nerfing anything. We should wait for the AI to continue to improve.

You didn't notice that the entire allocation of AI forces (drone sats and a fleet no less) attacked him? Sure the AI isn't tactically adept, but that doesn't matter that much when you don't engage it in battle but rather ignore it. A human player would likely have killed most of his ships, but he would still have lost his planet. The tradeoff is vastly in favour of the assault shuttle user.

But even if it was only the AI being incapable of reacting properly, it still doesn't answer the issue of Siege Drivers. What about them? They are hardly accurace enough to hit even a LV or high level station, so what is the point of them? They destroy the planet a lot more than assault shuttles, and it kills the population a lot slower, yet it is a massive investment in resources and research. If it was to be buffed to be more powerful than assault shuttles, it would kill planets in 2-3 shots. Yes, that is a lot of fun isn't it?
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Nall White
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Re: Re-balance Assault Shuttles

Post by Nall White » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:31 pm

I did notice what defenses the AI had. I ran into the same thing over the weekend. In the case where the AI had fleets in the system or when they did send a patrol fleet. It wasn't a total cake walk. The AI dreads (Hiver) ran from my assault shuttle carriers. Also, the AI is only using Drone sats now. Once torp, BR, and Scan (for when I clock the carriers :twisted:) come in to play I will jump on the re-balance bandwagon.
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Ishantil
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Re: Re-balance Assault Shuttles

Post by Ishantil » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:45 pm

The main problem that I have is that it's really hard to get system defense in the way of assault shuttles. Drones and riders should prioritize assault shuttles over every other target. To be fair, I haven't had much experience with this particular event because I've never had the AI launch assault shuttles against me.

Mecron has stated that the planetary defense rings are out.

If you don't launch your assault shuttles directly towards a satellite of some kind with PD turrets, there's not much that can done about it, baring a fleet in close orbit. Assault shuttles as they are now are pretty tough, too.

I almost wish there was a second kind of close in kind of satellites that you could place a couple of PD sats in, but that would violate Mecron's rule. :)
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Nall White
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Re: Re-balance Assault Shuttles

Post by Nall White » Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:10 pm

In my experience, drones will go after shuttles. But, I put PD on all of my shuttles and don't launch until point blank range. Late game I've had to run a two factor attack. Battle fleets for defense assets/fleets, and then the Assault shuttle fleets. Additionally, I use the deep scan sections because they have more PD mounts. Shield techs help when there are defense fleets. I've used IV shields with re-chargers and ran at max speed past everything to the planets. There are advantages to using shuttles now. But, I would rather wait for the AI to catch up before making any adjustments.
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Tarrak
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Re: Re-balance Assault Shuttles

Post by Tarrak » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:05 pm

Nall White wrote:There are advantages to using shuttles now. But, I would rather wait for the AI to catch up before making any adjustments.

You mean like all the other things where the AI is currently disadvantaged? Like colonizers, somewhat higher tech weapons... wait a moment, these things have indeed been changed. Just because the AI is troubled doesn't mean that we should just ignore the matter.

Right now Assault Shuttles are like the pre-war bombers, at least in the theorists minds, 'the assault shuttle will always get through'.

Anyway, you yourself said that your experience is that drones attack the shuttles. But apparently 12 drone sats (72 drones) aren't enough to get close to halting the shuttles. And what point would the other sats have given that drones sats are most likely the best counter there is agianst assault shuttles. You just avoid the torp sats, or rush past them, and while battle riders are stronger at killing cruisers they are significantly less capable at hunting shuttles.

If you are willing to sacrifice your carriers, then no system can stop you from ripping at least one planet out. And that is more than enough to make it worth it. The carriers are pretty cheap anyway and they are available right away. Heck, as Morrigi you can most likely reach your opponent's homesystem in a small map with a gravboat. Talk about getting a nasty surprise when at turn 5 a Morrigi Assault Shuttle fleet shows up and glasses the homeworld.
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Nall White
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Re: Re-balance Assault Shuttles

Post by Nall White » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:30 pm

Tarrak wrote:
Nall White wrote:There are advantages to using shuttles now. But, I would rather wait for the AI to catch up before making any adjustments.

You mean like all the other things where the AI is currently disadvantaged? Like colonizers, somewhat higher tech weapons... wait a moment, these things have indeed been changed. Just because the AI is troubled doesn't mean that we should just ignore the matter.

Right now Assault Shuttles are like the pre-war bombers, at least in the theorists minds, 'the assault shuttle will always get through'.

Anyway, you yourself said that your experience is that drones attack the shuttles. But apparently 12 drone sats (72 drones) aren't enough to get close to halting the shuttles. And what point would the other sats have given that drones sats are most likely the best counter there is agianst assault shuttles. You just avoid the torp sats, or rush past them, and while battle riders are stronger at killing cruisers they are significantly less capable at hunting shuttles.

If you are willing to sacrifice your carriers, then no system can stop you from ripping at least one planet out. And that is more than enough to make it worth it. The carriers are pretty cheap anyway and they are available right away. Heck, as Morrigi you can most likely reach your opponent's homesystem in a small map with a gravboat. Talk about getting a nasty surprise when at turn 5 a Morrigi Assault Shuttle fleet shows up and glasses the homeworld.

I think the issue is the current state of the AI and planet defense not shuttles. Like I said I don't launch until point blank range anyway. I would like to suggest the amount of sat allowed increased by 50% and able to be closer together.
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Tarrak
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Re: Re-balance Assault Shuttles

Post by Tarrak » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:37 pm

And as I have said, a human player can't do much else than killing the carriers after the fact... It doesn't really change the outcome if it is human or AI, the target is still glassed. There are more factors at play than 'mere' capabilities. There are also relative balance, which is currently far in favour of the shuttles. Why bother with plagues? Why bother with Siege Drivers? There is indeed a balance issue.
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Goomich
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Re-balance Assault Shuttles

Post by Goomich » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:04 am

How about police cutters? There is no limit how many you can put on sector, and with some PD (PD shoots at shuttles right?) they could act as nasty surprise.

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Nall White
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Re: Re-balance Assault Shuttles

Post by Nall White » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:50 am

It has been suggested planets get abstracted AA towers. That would be nice.
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Weidekuh
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Re: Re-balance Assault Shuttles

Post by Weidekuh » Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:38 am

Goomich wrote:How about police cutters? There is no limit how many you can put on sector, and with some PD (PD shoots at shuttles right?) they could act as nasty surprise.


Police Cutters may help. But they are also pretty weak in combat.

@Nall

The problem is not AI or MP. The problem is as Tarrak explained, the attacker with assault shuttles is nearly unstoppable until your planet is dead. IF assault shuttles would be a tech investment like xombie plague, no one would have any issues with them. Because then it would be a heavy commitment and you lose on many other techs while going assault shuttles. But they are a starting tech (!). I can't stress that enough. Assault shuttles are a starting tech and also the most powerful planetary attack weapon by far. It just doesn't matter who your enemy is, you will glass or heavely cripple his planet. This is not balanced. Reduce assault shuttles health by 1/3 and reduce their damage by 1/2 would be fine. Defenseless planets would still just die in one round. But defended planets would have a chance to shot down the assault shuttles before they are devestated.

But probably the devs are already aware of that and are just waiting to make further balance changes. Well i hope anyways.

A planetary AA battery (PD) would also be a good idea. ;)
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