Increase tactical speed of Loa SDB

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Resok
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Increase tactical speed of Loa SDB

Post by Resok » Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:10 pm

Currently it has a top speed of 120, which is significantly slower than their turn one Fusion cruisers (which clock in at 140 or so depending on sections).

As it stands now when SDB's come into play (generally middle->late game at earliest) the rest of the races can out-pace the Loa SDB which significant limits their effectiveness at attacking enemies in system. Combined with the majority of the mounts being strafe the main purpose of this ship seems to be a brawler but without the speed needed to compete with any race in the AM era, and most races in the Fusion era.
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Re: Increase tactical speed of Loa SDB

Post by Aranador » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:22 am

I suppose that comes down to an idea of what the intent of SDB was for. If they are a boat supposed to defend a key location in a system, then the fact that they start at that location really means they don't have to go fast - they are already where they are supposed to be.

I confess I seldom use SDBs - I usually play Morrigi and their SDB is pretty much pointless. Given that, perhaps I am biased to believe that SDBs are supposed to be basically useless compared to the option of say, more torpedo satellites. I understand that the human(?) one has polaris missiles? That would be pretty useful with it's long range. Still - I come away with this feeling that the SDB is another layer of defence you can add, albeit each layer tends to be steadily thinner and thinner. You wouldn't use anything but the best if there wasn't this situation where you've already put in the most of the best you can, and now you have to turn to second, third, and fourth best to keep increasing. Diminishing returns.

I think the most compelling argument would be to show that the LOA SDBs are notably less capable across the board than any of the other races, by enough of a margin to demonstrate that the mark was comprehensively missed.

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Re: Increase tactical speed of Loa SDB

Post by Resok » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:58 am

I already have if you understand the implications of the facts I've laid out. Regardless I don't think there is much of a reason to argue the usefullness of SBDs. Personally I find them incredibly strong for all the current races and much better than a stationary asset with weaponry that can simply be shot down with PD weapons. SBDs also allow you to keep and control territory as they're mobile and for all other races quite fast. In an entrenched, sustained siege of a system tactical speed is one of the major factors that allows you to control your engagements - and having an asset that can exceed or at least match enemy tactical speeds is essential for delivering the damage for strafe mount weapons. Additionally for a race like Loa where you cannot place your ships in the battle manager for MP a slow speed is a significant drawback.

1. Loa SBD is a specialized close range attack ship based on it's weapon loadout (only 4 generic medium mounts that *could* be used for missiles does not count as significant long range weaponry).
2. Due to the Loa SBD being a close range ship, to perform it's ability to deliver it's firepower it first needs to at least match the speed of the enemy's it intends to engage. In this case it cannot against the majority of races in fusion era, let alone AM era (which is generally the soonest I see SBDs).

For comparison:

Morrigi SBD - 185 speed.
Tarka - 150 speed (also a close range brawler weapon loadout)
Liir - 180 speed
Hiver - 165 speed
Zuul - 180 speed
Solforce - 160 speed

Note that all of these exceed the fusion cruiser engine speeds for their comparable races (some by a small amount, others by a lot).
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Re: Increase tactical speed of Loa SDB

Post by Mecron » Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:04 am

it is indeed too slow

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Re: Increase tactical speed of Loa SDB

Post by Aranador » Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:18 am

Resok wrote:
For comparison:

Morrigi SBD - 185 speed.
Tarka - 150 speed (also a close range brawler weapon loadout)
Liir - 180 speed
Hiver - 165 speed
Zuul - 180 speed
Solforce - 160 speed

Note that all of these exceed the fusion cruiser engine speeds for their comparable races (some by a small amount, others by a lot).



Fair enough. I guess I would have liked to have seen a comparison of overall stuffs rather than a single statistic though, just in case this low speed was balanced by some other area of amazingness. I find it interesting that the Morri is the fastest, as perhaps that is why it is otherwise such a disappointing unit.

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Re: Increase tactical speed of Loa SDB

Post by Pavane » Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:25 pm

I like the idea of SDB's but I rarely have them because I haven't found a compelling use for Stealth Armour, a pre-requisite for the Stealthed Structures used to house the SDB's. The total research cost (from multiple disciplines) seems too high for SDB's. Perhaps if I used them more in combat situations I would appreciate why they have to have stealth hangars, but the reason escapes me for now.
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Re: Increase tactical speed of Loa SDB

Post by Resok » Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:18 pm

Yeah I fail the roll for Stealth armor a lot myself, however in races that have a good chance at both reflective and improved reflective coating I'll do a feasibility study on it just in case since having a minimum of 2 extra cruisers (even if their options are limited) in a fight is pretty strong though I can agree the research cost is not insignificant. For Loa in particular (since I cannot position my fleets in the battle manager) they would serve the role of having at least a couple of cruiser equivalent at every Planet which can help buy me some time on the defensive against races that are difficult to box in. Losing a frontier or a core world as Loa is a big deal, and drone platforms only serve as an expensive delaying tactic in most cases where as SBDs can serve as a reserve fallback defense from at the very least long range assault shuttle launches.
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Re: Increase tactical speed of Loa SDB

Post by Pavane » Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:05 pm

The Morrigi SDB are at -50 Signature (the Loa get short changed there as well) so perhaps they have Stealth armour built in to the SDB as well as the hanger to justify the research pre-requisite. I will have to research them in my current game and try them out again. I looked at the stats in the Wiki and they do compare well to a base cruiser.
Last edited by Pavane on Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Increase tactical speed of Loa SDB

Post by Mecron » Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:05 pm

" I would appreciate why they have to have stealth hangars, but the reason escapes me for now."

....Cause a big runway and a hanger on a rock is an easy target? ;)

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Re: Increase tactical speed of Loa SDB

Post by Pavane » Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:13 pm

Mecron wrote:" I would appreciate why they have to have stealth hangars, but the reason escapes me for now."

....Cause a big runway and a hanger on a rock is an easy target? ;)

Wouldn't the SDB have launched even before a non-stealth hanger was spotted? Too bad for the hangar crew, but they have the same chances as a Drone Satellite.
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Re: Increase tactical speed of Loa SDB

Post by Mecron » Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:36 pm

You know that thing where you can blow up drone sats all that you please but the SDB can't even been really seen till it activates? Yeah, those dudes don't sit out there in space in their combat ship...they need a place to sleep eat and refuel while they wait 5 years to be needed ;)

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Re: Increase tactical speed of Loa SDB

Post by Pavane » Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:02 pm

Mecron wrote:You know that thing where you can blow up drone sats all that you please but the SDB can't even been really seen till it activates? Yeah, those dudes don't sit out there in space in their combat ship...they need a place to sleep eat and refuel while they wait 5 years to be needed ;)

Yeah, they are the Maytag repair men of SolForce; waiting for that call. :)

By the way, I realise that they need a hangar. I just question the need for a stealth one.
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Re: Increase tactical speed of Loa SDB

Post by Resok » Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:46 pm

I think that discussion could be had in a different thread really :)

I could try to argue that SBDs should be more easily attainable - but really everything in SOTS (1 and 2) is about investment in solutions to problems. Reflective Coating -> Imp Reflective Coating -> Stealth armor -> Stealth SBD Hangers is a solution to a problem of normal defense assets perhaps being insufficient for the current level of enemy offense. The return I personally feel is good on the investment though the investment is fairly costly and very often unviable for many races just due to random chance and a very linear path (no alternate links from other techs).

Overall the basis for my argument of having them be more easily attainable is simply because I think they're very cool in both concept and functionality and want to use them in more games (or fight against them), which kind of goes against the core principals of SOTS forcing you to pick alternate paths to victory if you don't get 'that thing you really want'. As it stands I have yet to fight against enemy deployed SBDs in SOTS2 (MP or SP) so at least they 'feel' very uncommon.
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