FACTION: SOL FORCE

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Mecron
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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by Mecron » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:47 pm

you want more questions answered pleb? Chill the backhanded BS in them, thanks. Your credit with the devs here is not exactly overflowing.

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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by Unwashed_Pleb » Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:02 pm

wait what?

I just want answers to questions. Which one jumps out as 'backhanded B.S.'?
Plebeian. Adj.
1. Of, belonging to, or characteristic of commoners.
2. Unrefined or coarse in nature or manner; common or vulgar: plebeian tastes.

Unwashed. Adj.
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2. Plebeian: the unwashed masses.

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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by Erinys » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:33 pm

Backhanded portions of your post highlighted red for educational purposes.

Unwashed_Pleb wrote:I made the original question about the cetaceans, I just wanted to see if the story had progressed on that note...


No, the story of biocultural biology has not "progressed" to the point that the culture of an extinct species can be recreated from the tissue samples of non-living members. Nor will it ever.

I confess, I don't know what the "cannon" travel time between systems for the Hivers is, strictly, but from what I can tell, the time frame between Human development of the Nova Maria to combat cruisers was abrupt. Even after the orbital station that built and launched her was destroyed.


The "canon" travel time for Hivers moving between systems without a gate is sub-light speed. You can slow down the progress quite a bit for a dreadnaught that was crippled by planetary missiles.

The "canon" travel time any Human ship equipped with a Node drive, on the other hand, is one of the fastest in the SotS universe.

Starting to get the picture?

Why didn't the Hivers, after noticing a princess was missing, send more ships to investigate? Why didn't they unite to crush this upstart race who spontaneously declared war against several of their smaller empires before it grew to become a real threat?


Obsidian Crown's fleet was not "the Hivers". She was a renegade and an outlaw who had murdered quite a number of her own peers before she was driven out of Hiver space. For that matter, "the Hivers" as a conjoined entity did not exist until the Human onslaught. They were in the middle of an Interregnum at the time, and busy fighting one another until they had a common foe.

I know humans are mean when cornered, but it seems like we went from "zero to hero" faster then advertized in a late night commercial.


The tone of the whole section and most of the questions in it boiled down to this. I wasn't particularly holding it against you, but a lot of the worst and not-smartest posts to this forum come from people who have not bothered to get up to speed on the canon universe before they start throwing judgments around.

To the author and to other people "in the know", this makes you come across a bit poorly. Sorry, but I might as well say flat out that the unwillingness to read before you judge and bitch was the reason that the last jerk got thrown out of here.

What are the largest and/or most important human colonies?


Canonically only, the oldest and best developed Human-dominated stars were the “Thirteen Suns” that had been officially chartered by Sol Force by the year 2438.

These were Sol Terra, Isis (2410), Spica (2415), Junction (2412), Midway (2412), Mjolnir (2413), Arcadia (2416), Nova Roma (2417), Hynek (2420), Vision (2421), Nemesis (2423), Fort (2428) and Kepler (2433).

Sol Force control of a region designated as “Human Space” extended considerably further and included many outposts, listening posts, refueling stations and garrisons located in systems unsuitable for significant human occupation, even in 2438, and Human-controlled space extends even further now. In addition, many human-occupied worlds over the past century were never granted the legal status of a colonial charter by the United Consortia.

Did humanity lose the Leviathan to the Zuul?


The S.F.S. Leviathan was not lost to the Zuul. But it is lost.

I know the avatars in SOTS have the pension for the silly, but why in the world is there a Tarkas that looks like a human-tarkas hybrid? Genetic splicing gone wrong, or James T. Kirk Syndrome?


Again, your tone leaves something to be desired, but this question has been answered by someone who read The Deacon's Tale.

Tor is a son of the El Kona and dresses appropriately. He is a pure-blooded human, not a Tarka--hybrids are not possible between the two species. And he will remain one of the possible Tarka avatars, because he could have become both Emperor and Supreme Commander during his lifetime, if circumstances had been different. He was extremely popular in his youth and retains many supporters even now in his old age.

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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by zanzibar196 » Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:26 am

Erinys wrote:No, the story of biocultural biology has not "progressed" to the point that the culture of an extinct species can be recreated from the tissue samples of non-living members. Nor will it ever.


I'm actually rather surprised that dolphin and other cetacean DNA wasn't preserved (possibly even digitally via DNA sequencers) by the humans... I am relatively certain, due to the way we can currently clone sheep and other mammals, we should have that technology at the very least before we wipe out such a species. Couldn't some dolphin clones be created for study from this data? As long as you know the correct order to assemble the chromosomes... I would think it wouldn't be hard... plus Liirian bio tech should be sufficient to birth such creatures? Also, since we have recordings of dolphin behaviors in the wild... would the Liir be interested in semi-reviving these creatures?
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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by nickersonm » Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:42 am

I don't think you read Erinys' post very closely. She said the cetacean culture can't be recreated from tissue samples (i.e. DNA), [edit]presumably[/edit] because none of the culture was preserved. I would think that new cetaceans could be created, and could establish a de novo culture, but I don't understand how this is not "true life" which Erinys said was not possible (I don't recall that discussion in the Races forum, although at some point I've read all the threads there).
Last edited by nickersonm on Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by zanzibar196 » Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:48 am

nickersonm wrote:I don't think you read Erinys' post very closely. She said the cetacean culture can't be recreated from tissue samples (i.e. DNA), because none of the culture was preserved. Presumably new cetaceans could be created, and would establish a de novo culture; but I don't understand how this is not "true life" which Erinys said was not possible (I don't recall that discussion in the Races forum, although at some point I've read all the threads there).


Well, in theory... SOME dolphin culture could be recovered due to quite a lot being recorded digitally... perhaps with the right Liirian teacher? I wouldn't say it would 100% be the same... but maybe the Liir would like to bring such a race back from the dead as a sort of healing the universe's wounds thing?
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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by Erinys » Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:08 am

nickersonm wrote:II would think that new cetaceans could be created, and could establish a de novo culture, but I don't understand how this is not "true life" which Erinys said was not possible (I don't recall that discussion in the Races forum, although at some point I've read all the threads there).


Jiminy. Humping. Christmas.

Fine. Let me posit a scenario and see if I can make it painfully, abundantly clear how offensive this idea is.

The human race, as of the year 2014, will become extinct. Absolutely, utterly, irretrievably extinct. Every last human. DEAD DEAD DEAD.

The only remnants of our existence will be a few frozen tissue samples, videos, and bones.

800 years later, Squid Creatures from some other universe visit our planet. They have the proverbial "Genetical Supah Powahs". They have no difficulty sequencing the human genome from those samples, preserved in atomic refrigerators deep underground. They have no difficulty incubating a human organism which will be, biologically, a human being.

Problem is? There is not and never will be a real human mother to breast feed that child, socialize that child with vital physical contact with another primate, teach it to speak ANY human language, teach it to walk, to use a toilet, to hold and use a tool, to prepare and consume human food. There is not and never will be a real human father, either, who could handle all of the above except lactation. There is no one left alive to teach a human to be a human.

PICTURE in your head what a human is like who has been denied normal human enculturation for the first 12 years of his or her life. If you can't, google "feral child" and absorb the horror of it. Then come back and tell me that a world of feral children is really a good enough solution. That a feral human, any number of feral humans, are just the same as a real living human race full of people who know how to be people. That the Squids can make our species "not extinct any more" in any way that is meaningful at all.

So...yeah. If you can honestly wish that anyone would do this to a creature as bright, as joyous, as perfect as a dolphin? As harmonious and magnificent as a whale? If you think that a tormented, blighted, twisted and feeble parody of life is just the same as real life? Then yeah, sorry. I think there is something very, very wrong with the way you think. And I will not call this true life. Even if the Squids somehow enculturated us to be Squid-things, the human race would still be dead as the dinosaurs.

I refuse categorically to indulge this fantasy in any medium, for any reason. Science is not Jesus. Geneticists cannot raise the dead. Once certain screw-ups are made, they cannot be un-made by wishing or by a test-tube of ANY size.

You want dolphins to exist in the future, BLOODY DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT NOW. Right now, in the real world, where your wishes actually count. Science is not going to save the dolphins once the last of them is gone, and neither will science fiction. The Liir would be the first to tell you that Frankendolphins made in a test tube are not real dolphins.

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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by nickersonm » Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:56 am

Err, apologies if I was somehow offensive. My first post in this topic was merely trying to tell zanz that he seemed to be missing the point of your previous response, with a disclaimer that I didn't fully understand it either, because I did not recall the previous discussion. I purposefully avoided an opinion on the issue, because I haven't spent sufficient time in research and consideration on it (perhaps my post was initially more clear with "presumably" instead of "I would think", before I rephrased to avoid repetitiveness after the edit).

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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by Erinys » Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:05 am

Sorry. It's been years, and I've lost all patience with the question and the refusal to accept the answer. For that matter, I have to wonder how humans would take it if the Hivers came to us and said, "Hey. There were some primates on our planet several hundreds of years ago that we brutally hunted to extinction? We thought that since they looked a lot like you, maybe you could take this DNA we saved from our victims and bring them back to life. We have some tapes of them doing tricks for bananas, so we thought you could figure out their culture too and train them to be apes like you."

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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by zanzibar196 » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:03 pm

Well, we could put them with the orangutans, chimps, and gorillas and sorta train 'em to be mostly ape... Wouldn't the Liir have something like this on Muur?
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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by ZedF » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:55 pm

*facepalm*
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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Mecron
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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by Mecron » Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:01 pm

Zanzibar...ok now you have to be doing this sort of thing on a dare...it is literally NOT possible to be this clueless AND be able to feed yourself...seriously.

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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by nickersonm » Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:02 pm

Thanks for the repeated explanations, Erinys. I think that last example, especially, makes it abundantly clear that it's not a technical question (edit: in the sense of an animate organism with the requisite DNA), which I think several people have been focusing on, but rather a strong moral one.
Last edited by nickersonm on Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by Erinys » Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:24 pm

It is most certainly a moral question, and an important one, but as an anthropologist this also offends me on the purely scientific level. The death of a culture is not something that you just sweep under the rug of crude physical biology. A living thing is more than just a sack of meat, especially when it is a social animal which has to be socialized, like a primate or a cetacean.

It is not just morally reprehensible, it is ALSO technically impossible. Humans could not teach an extinct alien primate how to be itself. And Liir could not teach an alien cetacean how to be a dolphin.

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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by DemoMonkey » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:51 pm

The difference between Liir and Humans, is that yes. The Humans WOULD try to do it. No matter how hideous the inevitable result, someone would try it. Someone, somewhere, would go "Cloneable alien primate DNA? FIRE THAT MONKEY UP!".

And then would come the running, and the screaming, and the GLAYVEN. We're just that kind of species.

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