Morrigi Internet Backup?

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Hari Seldon
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Morrigi Internet Backup?

Post by Hari Seldon » Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:14 pm

If the Morrigi had something like the Internet Archive then why did they lose their knowledge? It has Google Books and will probably eventually have more college and university lectures!
http://www.archive.org/

Morrigi females and males must have separate public education and libraries. Both went down?

The USA has a cyber warfare division (defensive not offensive they say) now, and I can imagine them trying to secure the Internet Archive from attack. I'm sure they'd want it in a secret nuclear-safe bunker if they could.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Cyber_Command

What I'm also saying is what happened to all of the technical manuals for the Drift City antigravity that they don't know how to maintain them? Or did they just run out of pre-Collapse parts?

Did the Morrigi have personal nanofactories (the next step up from 3D printers), that every exploration vessel could use to replace its parts and manufacture most anything else they had blueprints for?

Then again, considering what happened to the Tarka Silver Imperium (known space all becomes different ...) maybe this is worse than merely destroying civilization ...
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patton1942
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Re: Morrigi Internet Backup?

Post by patton1942 » Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:59 pm

if those servers become lost or damaged, the internet is not all that awesome for storing data anymore. Same holds true for loss of power, etc. Physical copies are just as vulnerable and considering that there was an actual war, damage or even outright destruction of physical copies and data loss are very likely.

Entire worlds getting wiped out will do that to you, I would assume.

[edit: as for the floating cities, IIRC we were told its a bit of both. The science behind them were lost, the technical ability to create spare parts was lost, but the basic principals are known? Or something like that. IE: just because you know that the HDD is bricked in your computer, and you know basically how it works, doesn't mean you can fabricate your own new HDD. You have to go to the store and buy one, and ever since the war, the 'great floating city depots" and "city warehouses" have all shut down.

I'm sure Erinys will come along and correct and / or clarify as needed.]
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Erinys
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Re: Morrigi Internet Backup?

Post by Erinys » Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:51 pm

I think the most important thing here is to get a grip on the time scale involved.

The height of Morrigi technology and power was 15,000 years ago, folks.

15,000 years ago, humankind was just learning to make friends with dogs. Farming was still far in our future.

The fact that people think they have nifty archiving systems in the modern age doesn't impress me at all. I've actually been involved in digital archiving projects in archaeology. I know the rates of decay for every known medium of communication, because people who take responsibility for collections of artifacts and information need to know these things. Unless the Morrigi were writing on clay tablets 15K years ago, their best bet for long-term storage is actually paper, not silicon. Digital storage media become corrupted or completely irrecoverable rather quickly--typically in less than a decade, even if they are kept in ideal conditions. Film and photographic media are corrupted or completely faded within a century at most without a lot of special help. Good quality paper, on the other hand, can hold up for hundreds of years in the right conditions.

Of course, the right conditions doesn't include bombardment from orbit. In their heyday, the Morrigi were more than willing to war on one another. One of the legendary Morru Khan figures from that age was called "Khabul of the Burning Cities"--he is known to have set at least 30 Sky Cities alight when the tribes defied his authority.

In short, if you want to know how a people lose their knowledge of past technology and language skills? Ask the Mycenaeans. And ask yourself why Greek-speaking people had to develop two entirely different written versions of the same language within 500 years. ;)

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marshb
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Re: Morrigi Internet Backup?

Post by marshb » Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:55 pm

You can be surrounded by technology and still be completely in the dark about what it was or what it was used for after the decline of a civilization. Hell even when things are going well, you can lose sight of what technologies did in the recent past. For example growing up in upstate NY we had to learn about the "Age of Homespun" which was part of the pre-industrial/post industrial revolution. The museums dedicated to this era were full of machine parts and tools that no one could say what they did or what they were used for.

I don't doubt that the Morrigi during their Renaissance had a better time of it due to discarded tech but they probably had to have invested a goodish amount of effort in some form of technoanthropology (I just made that word up) to understand it.

on a side note, how well would modern media storage methods weather a prolonged collapse of civilization without proper and constant maintenance before it decayed beyond usefulness? I'm betting not long.

Edit: Erinys beat me to it.
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Re: Morrigi Internet Backup?

Post by ZedF » Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:24 pm

Note that digital media/communications are great for *making* information ubiquitous. If you have a civilization where one part of the civilization collapses but other parts can help rebuild, this will ensure that most information survives in the rebuilt part of the civilization.

As others have said, though, it's not great for *keeping* information ubiquitous. If something bad happens to the entire civilization at once, or over a long interval, it's not as good as other forms of storage for archival purposes.
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Hari Seldon
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Re: Morrigi Internet Backup?

Post by Hari Seldon » Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:05 am

Actually I just remembered iron nanoparticle inside of a carbon nanotube memory, which is projected to last over a billion years without error correction. Even if that was three orders of magnitude an overestimation ...

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http://newscenter.lbl.gov/feature-stories/2009/06/03/billion-year-ultra-dense-memory-chip/

With ubiquity and, for archival backups anyway, long-term storage, especially if backups are disconnected from the internet so they can't be hacked ...

Though if each clan was jealous with their technology and somehow kept it secret, then maybe there really could be a great loss as clans were destroyed.

I'm not arguing with you, I just think that archiving properly is not necessarily a technological problem it is a budget problem, even if we have to create an Encyclopedia Galactica on paper ;).

I like the Morrigi and Tarka being post-apocalyptic, regardless :).
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Re: Morrigi Internet Backup?

Post by Glacialis » Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:46 am

I'm an IT engineer/architect who used to be an astrophysics major, and I gotta tell ya: It doesn't matter how awesome a technology is. It just doesn't. Lose the people who know how to work it and you might as well not have it.
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Re: Morrigi Internet Backup?

Post by Erinys » Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:56 am

Hari Seldon wrote:Actually I just remembered iron nanoparticle inside of a carbon nanotube memory, which is projected to last over a billion years without error correction.


That's someone else's science fiction, Hari. Not mine. ;p

Hypothetical papers are fine, but make sure you understand what you're reading. They project that the tube has a potentially long life, under ideal hypothetical conditions, but the authors of this paper fully recognize that the life of a storage device depends on the durability of the entire mechanism--not just a tiny single part within it. And they don't begin to guess at what stresses would shorten the life of a storage device which used this mechanism in the core.

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Re: Morrigi Internet Backup?

Post by Hari Seldon » Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:22 am

:Bow: to both of you.

Then I have only one last question. Did any Morrigi AI survive who, like IBM's Expert System Watson Jepordy program (which is being programmed how to parse medical journals as we speak after winning Jeopardy by a landslide) learned stuff that they could pass on? Morrigi have such a high chance to research AI that I do wonder ... especially since one AI Command exploration/trading ship and collector of antiques/knowledge surviving and their onboard AI could store a vital fraction of the internet, like Wikipedia and (in the future since Watson is being taught journals and probably eventually store and try to understand all books), and Watson can store Wikipedia, etc. to answer Jeopardy in one room, in a surprisingly small space a "rack of ten IBM servers" though in the actual Jeopardy episode IBM said how many computers directly, and that Watson is not connected to the internet. With current technology ... I mean winning at Jeopardy by a landslide is really hard, and a real AI would be unbelievably better ... us fleshy guys can still help AI, but AI rebellions prove that AIs can understand all of technology and invent more even if just a few survive to colonize another planet ...

Surely AIs have automatic error correction in their spare cycles if they're kept running, and spend a bit of redundant data space that forward error correction needs.

Watson currently runs on 10 racks of IBM servers, but computing power generally doubles every two years so the amount of hardware needed to run the same program will soon be significantly less. And the program can be tweaked to run slower, or scan less information, to make the program easier to deploy in a business setting.

IBM hasn’t disclosed prices for the commercial sale of Watson, nor details of the financial arrangements with the hospitals.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/02/17/ibms-watson-heads-from-jeopardy-to-medical-ward/

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http://www.informationweek.com/news/healthcare/clinical-systems/229900102
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Re: Morrigi Internet Backup?

Post by Erinys » Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:38 pm

The high chance of AI development among Morrigi is a reflection of their love of "helping machines", yes. But modern Morrigi AI's are new creations, not ancient survivals, and they are generally part of the newly emergent Morrigi technological complex, rather than an attempt to revive an old one.

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Re: Morrigi Internet Backup?

Post by Hari Seldon » Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:43 pm

:thumbsup:
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Re: Morrigi Internet Backup?

Post by Tavior » Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:50 pm

Erinys wrote:The high chance of AI development among Morrigi is a reflection of their love of "helping machines", yes. But modern Morrigi AI's are new creations, not ancient survivals, and they are generally part of the newly emergent Morrigi technological complex, rather than an attempt to revive an old one.

--Arinn


With the solo exception of surviving monitor space station which has at most expert system not a full sentinent AI right? I am wondering will SotS 2 still have some if not all ancient relic/monitor etc.. random events? Given that more time has passed since Argon Naval Shipyard you would think there would be less.

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Re: Morrigi Internet Backup?

Post by Hari Seldon » Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:44 pm

Tavior wrote:With the solo exception of surviving monitor space station which has at most expert system not a full sentinent AI right? I am wondering will SotS 2 still have some if not all ancient relic/monitor etc.. random events? Given that more time has passed since Argon Naval Shipyard you would think there would be less.


I think even if the Monitors had some eBooks or something left behind, Erinys was saying this:

Erinys wrote:are generally part of the newly emergent Morrigi technological complex, rather than an attempt to revive an old one.


I think this means that the Morrigi are happy researching and developing again from what they have, not reviving old stuff, unlike the Tarka who spend the time and effort to recover the old Hunter-class battleriders in Sots 1?

I'm happy with that. It's cool.
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Erinys
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Re: Morrigi Internet Backup?

Post by Erinys » Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:55 pm

There is plenty of ancient Morrigi technology still adrift in the universe. All I can presently say about it is that the things built in the height of the old empire no longer recognize the modern Morrigi as kin. ;)

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Re: Morrigi Internet Backup?

Post by kdonovan » Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:35 pm

Erinys wrote:There is plenty of ancient Morrigi technology still adrift in the universe. All I can presently say about it is that the things built in the height of the old empire no longer recognize the modern Morrigi as kin. ;)

--Arinn


Well that's got to suck for our winged friends. No more waltzing through Alien Wreckage and Colony and Asteroid Traps - plus whatever new nasties Kerb' has designed for us!

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