Black 21

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Ludovsky
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Re: Black 21

Post by Ludovsky » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:44 pm

Zuuls ans Liir feels both unlikely.

Zuuls never had an FTL drive before the current one, because they had never found the mean to... mostly they weren't expected to even become sapient. Their "FTL", if there was one, was whatever the Bloodweaver would use to chuck them at worlds. The current day Zuuls were a freak occurance in the Bloodweaver's plans, a weapon which reacted in ways unpredicted when it achieved sapience and stole the knowledge of another race to make it's own.
I thus find them unlikely to be "a familiar enemy in an unfamiliar form".

The same for the Liir. Unless we learn that one of the Suul'ka brought his own pet brainwashed sociopathics liir army with him in space when he launched, and actually allowed such an "army" to develop to lines decided by said Suul'ka rather than those followed by the fledgling liir empire, then these should be ruled out as well.
The current rebellion is indeed probably the only one to take in space as it has, or else we would have known sooner.
And let's be frank, if one of the Suul'ka had such an "army" available, chances are he wouldn't have had need of the zuuls in the first place.

However, in human eyes, both the -Tarkas- and -Hivers- would fit the "familiar" enemy bill, since both races have been in conflict with humanity in the past long enough to become very "familiar" foes, unlike one of a kind beings like grand menaces or the odd unknown menace who are "unfamiliar" by definition.

Something like remnants of the Silver Imperium, or a fledging splintered Hivers empire borne not from independent princesses but independent -queens- combined with the Hivers' penchant for self-modifications would both be good cases of meeting a "familiar enemy in an unfamiliar guise".

Of course, that is assuming this "Sometimes a Black Designation is given when a familiar enemy appears in an unfamiliar form" did mean anything.

On another end... considering the might that the Hivers Empire presented with the children of a single Queen(due to the "one Queen only"), and the amount of ressources that such an incredibly large population...
... the might of a new faction made from the children of -multiple- independent Queens acting together to conquer the universe as they unleashes their children like a plague of locusts in a galaxy-wide onslaught would feels like it would indeed still fit "The beginning of the end" for anybody standing in their way. Let's just think of the dangers represented by the "hungry chilren" scenario from SOTS1(also, note how all SOTS2 elements have had their roots in SOTS1 scenarios sofar?) multiplied by 2 or 4 if not more.

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Freyland
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Re: Black 21

Post by Freyland » Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:43 am

To add to the above, remember that not all the Queen's jewels were returned after they seemingly disappeared with the Silver Imperium.

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Starknight
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Re: Black 21

Post by Starknight » Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:40 am

Freyland wrote:To add to the above, remember that not all the Queen's jewels were returned after they seemingly disappeared with the Silver Imperium.


It's also important to note that it is not necessary for a Princess to ingest the Jewels of the prior Queen to become a Queen herself; it only speeds the process along. A Princess in isolation long enough (and thus not receiving the suppressant pheremones from the Queen) will develop into a Queen.
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saral
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Re: Black 21

Post by saral » Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:51 am

Ludovsky wrote:Zuuls ans Liir feels both unlikely.

Zuuls never had an FTL drive before the current one, because they had never found the mean to... mostly they weren't expected to even become sapient. Their "FTL", if there was one, was whatever the Bloodweaver would use to chuck them at worlds. The current day Zuuls were a freak occurance in the Bloodweaver's plans, a weapon which reacted in ways unpredicted when it achieved sapience and stole the knowledge of another race to make it's own.
I thus find them unlikely to be "a familiar enemy in an unfamiliar form".

The same for the Liir. Unless we learn that one of the Suul'ka brought his own pet brainwashed sociopathics liir army with him in space when he launched, and actually allowed such an "army" to develop to lines decided by said Suul'ka rather than those followed by the fledgling liir empire, then these should be ruled out as well.
The current rebellion is indeed probably the only one to take in space as it has, or else we would have known sooner.
And let's be frank, if one of the Suul'ka had such an "army" available, chances are he wouldn't have had need of the zuuls in the first place.

However, in human eyes, both the -Tarkas- and -Hivers- would fit the "familiar" enemy bill, since both races have been in conflict with humanity in the past long enough to become very "familiar" foes, unlike one of a kind beings like grand menaces or the odd unknown menace who are "unfamiliar" by definition.

Something like remnants of the Silver Imperium, or a fledging splintered Hivers empire borne not from independent princesses but independent -queens- combined with the Hivers' penchant for self-modifications would both be good cases of meeting a "familiar enemy in an unfamiliar guise".

Of course, that is assuming this "Sometimes a Black Designation is given when a familiar enemy appears in an unfamiliar form" did mean anything.

On another end... considering the might that the Hivers Empire presented with the children of a single Queen(due to the "one Queen only"), and the amount of ressources that such an incredibly large population...
... the might of a new faction made from the children of -multiple- independent Queens acting together to conquer the universe as they unleashes their children like a plague of locusts in a galaxy-wide onslaught would feels like it would indeed still fit "The beginning of the end" for anybody standing in their way. Let's just think of the dangers represented by the "hungry chilren" scenario from SOTS1(also, note how all SOTS2 elements have had their roots in SOTS1 scenarios sofar?) multiplied by 2 or 4 if not more.


It was a list of possibilities . Eliminating the unlikely on to come yet, but almost certain to become faction eventually.

Zuul and Liir I felt were very unlikely. but why would a Suul'ka need the Zuul in the first place?
A rebellion can succed by escaping rather than killing. (But both I felt were too new. (Besides the Liir pray to the black to move their ships.))

Hivers and Tarka were the two most likely. I leant more towards Tarka., because I didn't know about a different drive for Hivers. But I suppose if you can have 3 drives on the same principle why not 4?

SI we know had a different drive. I think more similar in some respects to Human/Current Zuul. Not the same.

Isolation with Hivers could work of course.

Simetra
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Re: Black 21

Post by Simetra » Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:34 am

Where exactly is it said that the SI had a fundamentally different drive from hyper/warp?

All I know is "a new drive for a new kind of conquest" which could also simply mean the first warp generation or something else, but not necessaryly a totally different drive from now.

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Heart of Storm
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Re: Black 21

Post by Heart of Storm » Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:06 pm

Simetra wrote:Where exactly is it said that the SI had a fundamentally different drive from hyper/warp?

All I know is "a new drive for a new kind of conquest" which could also simply mean the first warp generation or something else, but not necessaryly a totally different drive from now.


It isn't, its conjecture only.

The theory is that, the Silver Imperium dissappeared, taking their gem world and a few others with them, together with the Hiver Queen and her entourage.

What if they've simply shifted themselves to another plane or dimension? sorta hopped to the wrong side of the Meniscus - in order to reappear in the SotSVerse they would need a very unconventional drive.

Since Hiver and Tarka FTL systems use (loosely) similar principles its been speculated that if the Hivers and Silver Imperium Tarkas were to work together they may well combine their tech in a rather unique and interesting way which would lead to a new drive.


Of course its also Lore-forum speculation and I have no doubt Erinys will come up with something that will make us all go 'wow, we'd never have thought of that'

Simetra
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Re: Black 21

Post by Simetra » Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:20 pm

Thats what I said ;)

It's speculation. But the poster before said that is known - but it simply isn't.

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Mockery
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Re: Black 21

Post by Mockery » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:48 am

VNs are mapping the universe for a reason, presumably. I could see a second wave following to make use of the resources they'd gathered and sector they'd mapped. Even come with sweet immunities to random encounters like the Morrigi had, maybe a fully explored map.

Failing that; I could see things from the same sources as other things. Maybe specters deciding to launch expeditions into our reality.

(Personally, I liked the interpretatio of "Beginning of the end" that lead to 'beginning of SotS III [end of the triology]' or 'beginning of the final xpack for SotS II'.

Hell, Proteans weren't in SotS I, right? Maybe they're the terraformers/colonizers sent ahead of a colonization/evacuation fleet (Like the Progression Wars scenario from SotS I.)

Only tangentially related, but have we heard anything about what the Suul'ka think of the Proteans?

Edit: Oh, I guess whatever entity/purpose the Silicoids are gathering resources for might count as a familiar-but-new thing too.

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Ludovsky
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Re: Black 21

Post by Ludovsky » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:37 pm

I don't know for other Suul'kas, but I recall that the Bloodweaver found them a very nice piece of work by an ancient and forgotten fellow artist.

Kingstiger
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Re: Black 21

Post by Kingstiger » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:14 am

Personally? I'm betting on a return of the Silver Imperium Tarka.
This ties into this theory I have about them, though, so bear with me for a moment: The Silver Imperium's central planets were pulled through the meniscus (not sure on my terminology, been a while), specifically to prevent the mere possiblility of a peaceful Hiver-Tarkasian empire. This was done by whatever lives on the other side. Why? Well, the Hiver gates and Tarkasian Hyperdrives use the same basic principles in dramatically different ways. A side-by-side comparison might develope tech that could go through to the other side, which the whatevers didn't want.
/wildspeculation
Thus: the return of the Silver Imperium Tarka isn't "the beginning of the end" because they're all that much more dangerous than anyone else floating around space right now; it's the beginning of the end because they signal that the serious nastiness on the other side taking notice in the regular universe again.

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Ludovsky
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Re: Black 21

Post by Ludovsky » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:06 pm

Actually, was it ever said that the meniscus was actually a "dimension"?

Iirc, I'm thinking about Hivers Gates in specific because it sounded like the meniscus isn't really a "place" in the conventional sense. For example, how when going through a gate, the moment the fleet is "in" the gate they are considered to be within "all" of the universe at the same time for a split moment... to reform at the coordinates tagged by the "target" gate.

It was why "Black Mirrors" were/are considered such a scary fate because they are a way "in"... but without an "out" coordonate.

It -could- be a misinterpretation from my part admitedly, though.

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Erinys
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Re: Black 21

Post by Erinys » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:47 pm

The Meniscus is not a dimension per se. It is more what gives the universe the dimensions it has, and keeps all energy and matter from existing as one continuous explosion. ;)

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balti knights
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Re: Black 21

Post by balti knights » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:03 am

So could it be said it's the stuff in between, the glue so to speak.
The only way of finding the limits of the possible is by going beyond them into the impossible. Arthur C. Clarke.

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Re: Black 21

Post by Kingstiger » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:57 pm

oh, alright. Makes sense. So much for that theory :|

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Erinys
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Re: Black 21

Post by Erinys » Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:04 pm

balti knights wrote:So could it be said it's the stuff in between, the glue so to speak.


In a sense. Hivers conceptualize the Meniscus as a mirror. The duality of the Goddess (a.k.a. the Universe) is a pair of twins standing on either side of the mirror. One Queen is white, one Queen is black.

The Mirror of Creation hides each Goddess from the other. The White Goddess (matter) can see only Her own face. The Black Goddess (antimatter) can see only Her own face. Yet in some very sacred and secret depictions, each Queen reaches toward the Mirror and almost touches the glass, as if trying to touch Her twin on the other side.

The Meniscus is the non-event barrier which encloses the universe, divides it from other universes, and separates the twin halves of the universe from one another. It is permeable only under extraordinary circumstances--which is good, because if it wasn't sturdy, one or more of several Very Bad Things might happen.

The most drastic possibilities are truly apocalyptic on the grand scale. For example, the matter and antimatter halves of the universe might embrace at last, and all physical matter in the universe would recombine into pure energy, in a series of annihilating explosions that could take centuries or aeons to end.

The universe might also collapse or be annexed by another universe--consumed, subsumed or merged. Other universes have significantly different physical laws and mathematical constants, which means that things could get whacky. And probably not in a fun way.

The less drastic possibilities are still potentially unpleasant. Even a small breach in the Meniscus is like a small breach in your skin. You might see leaking or infection, with potentially dire results for anyone/anything in close proximity to the breach.

Hivers enter the Meniscus as a pattern and re-emerge: the Gate literally tears them down and builds them anew elsewhere. Tarkas actually split the Meniscus when they activate a warp engine. Their ships slip inside it as whole objects and retain their physical properties. A warp bubble is essentially a blister which contains a ship.

Like all methods of FTL transport, both methods pose certain...cosmic risks.

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