Suul'ka Black Swimmers?

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Ludovsky
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Suul'ka Black Swimmers?

Post by Ludovsky » Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:08 pm

This is just something I was wondering about but is it possible, on a technical level, for non-Elder Liirs to somehow go Suul'ka?
Specifically, I'm reffering to "Suul'ka" as a state of mind rather than the eldritch horrors that the 7 Lords of Winter are seen as.

As recent informations seems to have shown some of the Suul'kas out there seems to have become what they are for reasons much different than a mere fear of death so I suddenly was wondering if "regular" Liirs, who haven't become Elders yet, could technically reach a level of psychological state where they could be themselves considered "Suul'ka"?
That is, for example Black Swimmers who might have seen so much that their mind just snap to bring them to a level of complete detachment from pain and the lives of others that others of their kind would be unable but to declare them Suul'ka because of their state of mind and attitudes... even if the concerned Liir(s) might not see as such(perhaps because they think their victims truly now "deserves" their fate because of the suffering the Liir themselves see as caused by members of that race, thus deciding they are not even "worthy" of living anymore, or whatever other line of thinking might lead other Liirs to see them).

Basically, this was part of a wondering about the saying "The roads to hell are paved with good intentions" and wondering if, for some, becoming something like the Black Swimmers might not become such a road when they enlist. Part of it was also wondering if something like "reverse Prester Zuul" could be possible on a technical/theorical level.
Namely large amount of regular Liirs that go Suul'ka, or decide to espouse a style of life/philosophy inspired by Suul'ka for varying reasons, as opposed to followers of the Suul'ka who abandon the Suul'ka philosophy in favor of another vision of the universe.

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GildedBear
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Re: Suul'ka Black Swimmers?

Post by GildedBear » Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:22 pm

I imagine that it's technically possible for a young liir to go suul'ka. However, part of the reason great elders are traditionally the source of suul'ka is that their mind can dominate those around them. I would think that a young liir becoming suul'ka would require isolation from other liir, or perhaps a great elder suul'ka to shelter their mind from the Black.

The whole idea makes me wonder about the liir immersion faction. Can't remember their name at the moment.

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Korgan
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Re: Suul'ka Black Swimmers?

Post by Korgan » Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:28 pm

Black Tide, aka the holy order of suul'ka assassins.

Azrael Ultima
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Re: Suul'ka Black Swimmers?

Post by Azrael Ultima » Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:15 pm

They might be capable of doing it, but i'm not sure if they would ever have a reason to.

Not to mention that any non-elder Liir will likely be "fixed" by a more potent one before he can get that far.

Suul'ka get that far because they're already the biggest fish around and for a long time had nobody to stop them.
I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts.
The zeppelin of bluster Feldman excoriated Freddy with suddenly popped into a cloud of humility. (David Grand, The Disappearing Body, 2002)

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Heart of Storm
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Re: Suul'ka Black Swimmers?

Post by Heart of Storm » Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:55 am

Not sure, I think part of the process of becoming Suul'ka is the alienation and sense of being better then the other members of your species that only comes with being large and powerful enough to mentally dominate an entire planets worth of people..

A smaller Liir I would assume also lacks the ability to hide such a significant shift in personal viewpoint from others, remember these are an empathic and mentally interconnected race who are inclined to pick up on such things - the existence of the Prester Zuul Sineaters would also be a further barrier..

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Formid
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Re: Suul'ka Black Swimmers?

Post by Formid » Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:01 am

Considering Suul'ka has in the past been used as a pejorative term for entities that are most definitely not evil Cthulhu whales, and instead refers to a sociopathic-like frame of mind. Yeah, I'm sure there's ways for younger Liir to go Suul'ka. Though naturally their navy will be structured so as to minimize the likelihood to the absolute best of their ability, and they'll have had many years of experience refining that at this point.

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Kaan'Ish
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Re: Suul'ka Black Swimmers?

Post by Kaan'Ish » Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:40 pm

There might be ways for them to develop sociopathic, or other, traits in the short term, but unless they're very very very good at hiding their thoughts, in the face of the mental abilities of considerably older and more experienced Liir, they won't be able to manage it for long. In a species of telepaths, there isn't really the same concept of privacy of mind that we have. Furthermore, the Liir are exceptionally fond of psychic surgery, over and over again, until you think in the way they'd like you to.
That said, the black swimmers are unquestionably 'harder' in their attitudes than civilian Liir, but the horrible things they do are done to people who are not Liir. Everything they do is done in service to the Liir species, which appears antithetical to the concept of Suul'Ka, who are supremely solipsistic. The very fact that they have to rationalise what they do implies that they have not shifted into the insanity of the Suul'Ka, who see no need to explain themselves to anyone.

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GildedBear
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Re: Suul'ka Black Swimmers?

Post by GildedBear » Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:23 am

Where did this idea that Liir are fond of psychic surgery come from? Yes, they can do it, but as has been stated, the Liir have no subconscious, so there is no place to hid a thought from themselves. This means you would have to cut a thought out, which they would be aware of as with sin eaters. The only Canon 'psychic surgery' I'm aware of is Iishi and The Deacon, which seems to have been done as a last resort to deal with a bad situation and it was dome with dying breaths. (conjecture and hear-say mostly because I haven't read the deacon's tale yet.) That, to me, shows a great reluctance to edit the heads of others. Editing yourself is likely more common of course, but then that could be seen as mental exercise to keep your mind in the shape you want.

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