Suul'ka motivations

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Re: Suul'ka motivations

Post by ScoSteSal118 » Fri May 03, 2013 7:14 pm

cooptimo wrote:But back to Suul'ka motivations, is there any hope at all for any of them to find redemption? I ask this because one of the very best parts of the sots story from my perspective is the way the Zuul have been handled. They start out as a random and scary menace, then a full blown, "always chaotic-evil" race of psychopathic monsters. Then Sots2 reveals that no! Just like every other race in the game, Zuul are capable of altruism, sacrifice and heroism. In fact, the prester Zuul are in many ways now the "Big Good" in the story, from my perspective at least. What's more heroic after all, the angel that remains an angel or the demon who casts aside evil?

So could a Suul'ka find redemption? Do the the Liir offer it every time they do battle? One can almost imagine the Liir begging the fallen elder to come to their senses, to turn aside and become what they once used to be, even if it's futile. Could any of the Suul'ka still have some spark of what they used to be inside of them?

It seems to me that such an about-face would be pretty absurdly unbelievable unless there were external factors (as there were for Deacon/the Prester Zuul, maybe like Galbatorix's defeat in "Inheritance"?). They have, for hundreds of millennia, DEFINED THEIR IDENTITIES by a total rejection and dismissal of the Universe, of empathy, and of "good" generally. What they currently are is what they chose to make out of what they used to be.

By the way, "becoming what they once used to be" would necessarily involve either immediately committing suicide or doing a "Black" (staying alive only long enough to help eliminate the scourge of the Suul'ka (the Great Old Ones still holding the Suul'ka mindset) on the Universe and then either going dormant to be able to help in later crises (what the Black is currently doing iirc) or committing suicide). That is what respect for life other than one's own demands of a giant space whale that can only continue to exist at the expense of the continued existence of entire biospheres...

Also, your point about the Prester Zuul is interesting/cool imo.

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Re: Suul'ka motivations

Post by Catfish » Sat May 04, 2013 12:31 am

Yeah, I think the other big problem with the Suul'ka is that they don't really have anything left to care about. They've had thousands of years of drifting in space endlessly nursing their own enormous egos, concocting endless rationalizations for the genocide they have to commit just to stay alive. Could any argument or experience imaginable by a living being, even one as old and wise as a Liir elder, break through that?

Presumably, the Suul'ka must have had mothers, they were presumably loved and nurtured and loved and nurtured others in turn, they probably even had children of their own but in the end when their time came to die they refused, they decided that they were more important than those around them, even their own children. They enslaved and tortured the community of which they had been a part for thousands of years so that they could ascend to the stars and live for thousands of years more as marauding parasites. It's not even just that everything they ever cared about is dead, although given their lifespans that's probably true. They actively chose to destroy everything they once loved because they saw it as less important than themselves.

They are not Suul'ka because the society they were raised in never equipped them for empathy, like the horde Zuul. They are Suul'ka because they chose to cut themselves off from others willingly in order to live past their allotted time, and they've had thousands of years now to justify it to themselves and convince themselves that they're more important than the countless lives they snuff out just to continue existing.

That's my take on it anyway.

I do love the Prester Zuul though, although going by the Deacon's Tale I'm not so sure the casting aside evil was entirely willing!

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Re: Suul'ka motivations

Post by Darv57 » Sat May 04, 2013 10:27 am

The Usurper: There can be only one.


Two things:

1. Any suul'ka decapitations yet?

2. Why did it take 4 pages for a highlander reference? :lol:

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Re: Suul'ka motivations

Post by fibio » Sat May 04, 2013 12:51 pm

Considering just how many Suul'ka helmets we found in SotS 1 there were probably more than a few decapitations :P
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Re: Suul'ka motivations

Post by Thamuzz » Sat May 04, 2013 11:50 pm

fibio wrote:Considering just how many Suul'ka helmets we found in SotS 1 there were probably more than a few decapitations :P

Those are courtesy of the Black.

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Re: Suul'ka motivations

Post by Sayeth » Mon May 06, 2013 11:43 am

Basically everything we do and live for is selfish. One who lives to make someone else (but not him/herself) happy is considered crazy or sick in our society.
Helping that old grandmother across the street? We do it because it makes us feel good about ourselves. Giving money to poor? Again, the same thing. Even going as far as to sacrificing own life to save someone else is done not because we value someone elses life more than our own but because we want to do it and it feels right.

When it comes to Suul'ka, it is obvious that they already lost everything and everyone they ever cared about and their own life is worth to them much more than any sentient or non-sentient life ever will. Some even find it pleasureable and worth to kill billions of lifes or suck their life. Simply because they can.
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Re: Suul'ka motivations

Post by ScoSteSal118 » Mon May 06, 2013 5:55 pm

Eh, your point only really holds so long as you stick with one of the two main definitions (that is, if you use the "exclusively oriented around one's self" as opposed to the "chiefly/primarily oriented around one's self" thing).
For instance, while one does get some benefit from doing "good"/"other-centered"/"altruistic" things, I don't see how those actions would necessarily be "selfish" if one was primarily motivated by concern for others and not primarily motivated by desire for the personal side-benefits of doing good.
If one does something because "it feels right" that is extremely bad for one's self overall (like sacrificing one's life for someone who you don't have some kind of emotional or evolutionary investment in) then one is not being centered around one's self but around an external moral system (and, by proxy, one is being primarily motivated by respect/concern for whatever provides the basis for that moral system- in this case, the Universe).

I'm inclined to think that the word "lost" is intensely inappropriate to that context, but I would agree heartily with the rest of that section.

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Re: Suul'ka motivations

Post by Aedrion » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:21 pm

"There can be only one, McLeod!"

I say they fear death like frightened little whimps and would do anything do delay it as long as they can.

We should do them the courtesy to show them it's not so bad by introducing them to Doctor Antimatter Torpedo.
I hear he's quite good at explaining death to people who meet him.

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