Why did the Morrigi fall from their peak 15,000 years ago?

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Treliant
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Re: Why did the Morrigi fall from their peak 15,000 years ag

Post by Treliant » Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:22 pm

You really don't think Humans wouldn't build something as extravagant as that flying city if we had the technical knowledge to pull it off for moderately reasonable cost?
Hell we are currrently planning on building a floating city that will sail the world : http://www.freedomship.com/
Is it really that far fetched that if gravity based tech was on par with general ship building we would build a flying city?

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Re: Why did the Morrigi fall from their peak 15,000 years ag

Post by Azrael Ultima » Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:12 pm

Erinys wrote:Lol...too extravagant to believe anyone would build it?

Someone isn't an archaeologist.

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Tarrak
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Re: Why did the Morrigi fall from their peak 15,000 years ag

Post by Tarrak » Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:22 pm

We only have to look at our own fantasies. Like this one, or the skyhooks in Star Wars. As humans we are drawn to these things. Lets go 200 years back and explain that people live and work in 400 meters tall buildings, and we would get much the same response, why? Because we can and we like it. Obviously it has since been discovered that there are other benefits.
We would totally build floating cities if we could.
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Re: Why did the Morrigi fall from their peak 15,000 years ag

Post by DarkCecilo » Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:15 pm

For some reason I thought the reason was "Because we can".

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chris0101
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Re: Why did the Morrigi fall from their peak 15,000 years ag

Post by chris0101 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:25 pm

Tarrak wrote:We only have to look at our own fantasies. Like this one, or the skyhooks in Star Wars. As humans we are drawn to these things. Lets go 200 years back and explain that people live and work in 400 meters tall buildings, and we would get much the same response, why? Because we can and we like it. Obviously it has since been discovered that there are other benefits.
We would totally build floating cities if we could.



Immediately, I could think of it as a potential solution to overpopulation.

Compared to space where you'd have to have a spinning station to get gravity (although admittedly, I imagine the Morrigi with their gravity technology could probably think of something).




Either way, the causes of the Morrigi decline are still unanswered. Either they declined overnight or gradually. And we now that a hint that somebody did some very bad things to the empire.

But Khabul? Hmm ... it does imply that he was able to unify the empire, but that he destroyed many cities. Presumably such cities were perhaps the center of Morrigi civilization?
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Treliant
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Re: Why did the Morrigi fall from their peak 15,000 years ag

Post by Treliant » Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:04 pm

I don't think unifying a civilization always equates to cultural/scientific advancement. I mean alot of brutal dictators have "unified" their countries then kept them in the dark ages as it makes it easier to maintain control. Enlightenement and progression don't often go hand in hand with oppression.

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Re: Why did the Morrigi fall from their peak 15,000 years ag

Post by Tarrak » Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:26 pm

The Morrigi were hardly in a dark age as they were still very advanced and still very enlightened. They were not reduced to pastoral activities or farming. So I doubt it was a political decision by a brutal dictator. It could of course be the results of overindulgence in wars, but damn it would have to have been utterly brutal, over several different wars and be more than 'this half vs that half'. It would have to be something that causes a breakdown of relations between more or less all units within the empire. In short, trust must be lacking.

By the way, floating cities wouldn't be a real solution to overpopulation. We have plenty room left on Earth to live on, what we lack are resources. Of course a floating city above a normal city would naturally limit the sprawl and congestion. A bit like Shanghai in Deus Ex: Human Revolution.
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Re: Why did the Morrigi fall from their peak 15,000 years ag

Post by Treliant » Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:43 pm

I wasn't implying they were in a human dark age :) I'm sure if you could compare the morrigi at their height to where they are now, dark ages might be how they would describe themselves.

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Re: Why did the Morrigi fall from their peak 15,000 years ag

Post by chris0101 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:29 am

Dark ages might be more on target than you might think.

For one, the human dark ages were on where well, we don't really have a lot of historical records of largely because relatively few texts were produced and it was in the aftermath of the collapse of the Roman Empire. It was an environment where well, writing and scholarship could not have flourished.

For the Morrigi, it's important to consider that again, a mighty empire had fallen and that again, there is a general absence of historical information.

Regarding the technological regression - hmm. Well Ancient Rome if you will never really made any major scientific advancements of its own. Mostly the took the ideas and technologies of others (Etruscans and Greeks especially) and made them their own. After Rome declined, Europe did to some extent regress technologically. Road construction for example declined vastly after ancient Rome decayed.

The Morrigi of course would have had to have developed most of their own technology, but the I imagine that the trade lines and perhaps lines of communication as well would have decayed.

But no, the Morrigi were not reduced to basic subsidence, it's clear that they still had faster than light interstellar travel and although declined in knowledge, a so far unrivaled (among the SOTS races) mastery of gravity based technologies. But compared to what they did have ... maybe dark ages isn't so far off?



Regarding war - there is one other consideration we have not made. Weapons of mass destruction on a interstellar scale. Not so bad that it would render planets destroyed, but something terrible enough to kill most Morrigi in a solar system.
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Re: Why did the Morrigi fall from their peak 15,000 years ag

Post by Erinys » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:00 am

chris0101 wrote:Regarding the technological regression - hmm. Well Ancient Rome if you will never really made any major scientific advancements of its own. Mostly the took the ideas and technologies of others (Etruscans and Greeks especially) and made them their own.


Wow. I have to tell you, as person with training in Classical Archaeology, that this is a truly outrageously non-factual statement. Roman innovation, particularly in architecture and construction, was immense. And there is literally no core technology developed by their predecessors that they did not refine and advance after adopting it, from the simplest machines to the most complex.

Their lack of innovation is mostly seen in Art, not science. But even that is not 100% true. Roman portraits derive from Etruscan antecedents but took the art much further. Roman mosaics are much superior to those of their predecessors, and were the precursors to Byzantine and medieval mosaics. Roman glass is superior to all other glass produced in the ancient world: for that matter they could do some things with gold and glass combined which are difficult to reproduce even today.

Technology is definitely not the area to bash the Romans.

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Re: Why did the Morrigi fall from their peak 15,000 years ag

Post by vaccum_pony » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:17 am

"What did the Romans ever do for us?"

Yadda yadda yadda ad the rest of the quote yourself. And if you don't know what I'm quoting, go watch this: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079470/
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Re: Why did the Morrigi fall from their peak 15,000 years ag

Post by Will the Great » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:20 am

Erinys wrote:
chris0101 wrote:We have so little information about what the Morrigi empire was like at their peak that we cannot really drawn conclusions. All we know is that they were trade centric, that they built floating cities....


Image


I've long been waiting to see a picture of a sky-city. <3

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Re: Why did the Morrigi fall from their peak 15,000 years ag

Post by Tarrak » Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:14 pm

chris0101 wrote:Dark ages might be more on target than you might think.

For one, the human dark ages were on where well, we don't really have a lot of historical records of largely because relatively few texts were produced and it was in the aftermath of the collapse of the Roman Empire. It was an environment where well, writing and scholarship could not have flourished.

For the Morrigi, it's important to consider that again, a mighty empire had fallen and that again, there is a general absence of historical information.

Consider the situation. The lack of Morrigi records is surprising, the lack of records after hte fall of the Roman Empire is not. Literacy was bound to be pretty much universal among the Morrigi, before, during and after the 'fall'. You can hardly say the same for late antiquity Europe. The Morrigi must have recorded the events, and then later lost them (one could imagine that they stored them in the floating cities, which would obviously have been the most prestigious places nad hte ones most easily targeted in wars). In many cases that's true for the socalled Dark Ages in Europe as well, however the amount of records, and their actual amounts of information would have been much much less. The Morrigi would have been able to give a full account of what people felt, what happened on seperate continents and even what they knew of what happened on other planets. That is vastly more than even the best Roman records can give us of those times. The Morrigi didn't lose much of the capacity like the Europeans, that is the significant difference. Morrigi living in those times might have a yearning for previous ages, but they would hardly consider their own age very dark, given that they were still making advances in Psionics, were still trading with primitive cultures on many planets, still had access to vast stores of knowledge and so on. They must have felt that they were the masters of the universe. It is even concievable that they looked down on their foolish ancestors (though that would conflict with their ancestor worship, though I guess not all ancestors are worthy of worship) for causing the event, perhaps even considering their advances in technology as a sort of hubris. I guess a "why make so many advances that were of no real practical use to us?" Of course they might not have known that at least some of them were implemented.

Dark Ages, no. Dark ages, yes (notice the difference in capital letters which makes all the difference). One is like our socalled Dark Ages, where the amount of remaining records are low because of the volume produced, the other is a dark age because we don't know what went on because the records are lacking (which could include low production but in this case because they are lost). Put in another way, one is dark because they didn't know, the other is dark because we don't know.

Also, while I, and others, do say 'The Morrigi Empire', it supposedly wasn't a coherent empire, but rather a loosly affiliated trade alliance. The cultural impact of the destruction of that wouldn't be that great. The Morrigi culture would go on on each planet and fleet, and while they would lament the loss of trade and connections, it would be more like the Western world losing it's connections to each other. Quite a sad thing, but nothing on the same scope as the Roman Empire. We are still leaning towards it in culture. The Morrigi would have been a lot more like the ancient Greek citystates.
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Re: Why did the Morrigi fall from their peak 15,000 years ag

Post by chris0101 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:25 pm

Erinys wrote:Roman innovation, particularly in architecture and construction, was immense. And there is literally no core technology developed by their predecessors that they did not refine and advance after adopting it, from the simplest machines to the most complex.


I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. For my part, I maintain that very few ideas were original Roman ideas. Aqueducts, thermae, most of Roman construction techniques, for example were not Roman ideas. What the Romans did do that was truly impressive in my opinion, was to integrate everything together, and on a scale never seen before. Roads, bridges, aqueducts, they all existed before Rome, but never on the scale that Rome had done up until that point. Roman metal production, architecture, were without a rival, but again, mostly ideas from others. In other words, they made huge incremental innovations, but relatively few truly original ideas. Perhaps only the Ancient Chinese could match the Romans in terms of organization.



Tarrak wrote:
Dark Ages, no. Dark ages, yes (notice the difference in capital letters which makes all the difference). One is like our socalled Dark Ages, where the amount of remaining records are low because of the volume produced, the other is a dark age because we don't know what went on because the records are lacking (which could include low production but in this case because they are lost). Put in another way, one is dark because they didn't know, the other is dark because we don't know.



I think you may be underestimating the destruction of the Morrigi at their height.

- Entire planets today once occupied by the Morrigi are not inhabited. Either their inhabitants were killed or forced to leave as refugees. Otherwise, why else would you abandon an otherwise good planet? (It's clear that the planets were quite inhabitable, as the other species of SOTS have no trouble settling them). That alone implies that something very, very dire happened.

I'd have to disagree about losing capacity too. Entire planets were abandoned. That is a huge loss in industrial might. Morrigi culture too would not go on for many tribes. Again, many worlds were abandoned. I would hesitate to guess that many tribes don't exist today and their survivors absorbed into the remaining tribes.

- Losing trade connections is much, much more vital than you might think. Consider if Canada and the US lost connections the rest of the world. Because each nation today is much more specialized, and much more interconnected. We'd lose access to a huge amount of consumer and industrial goods - remember everything you see that says "Made in China" for example would be unavailable. There would be shortages of many items that we take for granted today. True, in time, we could substitute most of the goods ourselves, but major factories, and the labor force to build such things do not occur overnight. And why did we trade to begin with? Efficiency. True, we could substitute most things we import, but we choose not to for a reason. The other nation just has an important absolute advantage.

- In many cases, they do not know the dates even of major leaders and events. That's huge. In the dark ages - understandable. In the space age of FTL travel? That would mean that every copy of the records of both the Morrigi and any empire that they interacted would have been destroyed. And it's a lot easier to duplicate computer records than physical.

Also, another consideration. The Morrigi at their peak were a collective of planets if you will, that were probably the dominant power in the region. Today, they're just a regional power. A major power no doubt, but not the dominant power.
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Erinys
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Re: Why did the Morrigi fall from their peak 15,000 years ag

Post by Erinys » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:13 pm

chris0101 wrote:I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.


I'm afraid this is not an option. You are simply, factually mistaken. They call it "The Roman Architectural Revolution" for a reason.

Irrigation was not a new idea. Supplying cities and fields with water was not a new idea. But true AQUEDUCTS--literally, the water bridge, not just a stone tunnel or a limestone ditch? Those were a new idea. A Roman idea.

Building a fire to warm a room was not a new idea. HYPOCAUSTS--literally, a system of central heating which used a FURNACE to create hot air and water and circulate them through a building--that was a new idea. A Roman idea.

Taking a hot bath was not a new idea. THERMAE--literally an indoor hot water swimming pool...was a new idea. A Roman idea.

Building temples and palaces was not a new idea. Working in stone was not a new idea. THE ARCH was a new idea. THE DOME was a new idea. These were Roman ideas. No true antecedent from any other culture existed. The Romans solved problems in architecture that other cultures COULD NOT solve.

Beyond the actual things that Romans invented outright, there are also the technologies they adopted and refined, and the technological processes that they enormously improved. Greeks had mills: Romans made infinitely superior mills and provided them with power sources an order of magnitude greater. Greeks had workshops: Romans had factories, and were arguably the spawn point of the world's first true Industrial Revolution.

Not going to argue about this further. The digression is off-topic, and I have too much specialized knowledge on this subject to let outright falsehoods be dismissed as matters of opinion. Some things are not matters of opinion: they are matters of historical and archaeological fact. This is one of them.

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