Why did the Morrigi fall from their peak 15,000 years ago?

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Tarrak
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Re: Why did the Morrigi fall from their peak 15,000 years ag

Post by Tarrak » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:44 pm

chris0101 wrote:I think you may be underestimating the destruction of the Morrigi at their height.

- Entire planets today once occupied by the Morrigi are not inhabited. Either their inhabitants were killed or forced to leave as refugees. Otherwise, why else would you abandon an otherwise good planet? (It's clear that the planets were quite inhabitable, as the other species of SOTS have no trouble settling them). That alone implies that something very, very dire happened.

I'd have to disagree about losing capacity too. Entire planets were abandoned. That is a huge loss in industrial might. Morrigi culture too would not go on for many tribes. Again, many worlds were abandoned. I would hesitate to guess that many tribes don't exist today and their survivors absorbed into the remaining tribes.

- Losing trade connections is much, much more vital than you might think. Consider if Canada and the US lost connections the rest of the world. Because each nation today is much more specialized, and much more interconnected. We'd lose access to a huge amount of consumer and industrial goods - remember everything you see that says "Made in China" for example would be unavailable. There would be shortages of many items that we take for granted today. True, in time, we could substitute most of the goods ourselves, but major factories, and the labor force to build such things do not occur overnight. And why did we trade to begin with? Efficiency. True, we could substitute most things we import, but we choose not to for a reason. The other nation just has an important absolute advantage.

- In many cases, they do not know the dates even of major leaders and events. That's huge. In the dark ages - understandable. In the space age of FTL travel? That would mean that every copy of the records of both the Morrigi and any empire that they interacted would have been destroyed. And it's a lot easier to duplicate computer records than physical.

Also, another consideration. The Morrigi at their peak were a collective of planets if you will, that were probably the dominant power in the region. Today, they're just a regional power. A major power no doubt, but not the dominant power.

I have already made my points about these things. You seem to mess things good and well together.
Loss of trade is economically catastrophic, but it isn't a loss of culture, it isn't a loss of laws and it isn't a loss of identity. Just look at Egypt. It suffer two very significant economical setbacks. One was caused by outsiders, the other is less obvious. But Egypt was still the same afterwards despite this being in a time where people would hardly know what the life of their parents was like, and knowing anything beyond the names of their great-grandparents would be uncommon (sure many of us don't even know that, but we know what life was life back then to a much greater extent). Bascially life didn't change all that much for them, perhaps it was somewhat more perilous, but Egyptian culture lived on relatively unchanged.

As I noted earlier, the loss of trade would be very dangerous to smaller colonies and trade posts. Meanwhile others would be hard enough to live on to suffer a decline in population that ended with the complete abandonment when they too reached the untenable point of no return. This is a relatively common event here on Earth, heck we need not look further than the early 90s to see large scale abandonment of towns and cities (in the former Soviet Union). But these abandonments doesn't have to mean the destruction of identity, knowledge or even of life (very few lives can be said to be lost in the former Soviet Union due to these abandonments).
Would the bigger planets take in these refugees? Possibly. A depressed population reproduces less (again the former Soviet Union is a poignant case, with a destructive fall in population in the 90s, one that has gotten a strong hold in the population so that it has continued and will likely continue, but the Great Depression is also a good case), but this is enhanced in the case of the Morrigi due to their cultural gender differences. With fewer visits by traveller fleets, fewer children would be born. The Morrigi demographics must have been very bleak in the fallout of the 'fall'.

I fail to see the point of the industrial capacity comment. I have made no points in that regard, but yes, industrial capacity of the completely empire would be much less. The loss of specialist components, knowledge and perhaps even resources would naturally reduce the output. But this is less of a problem than it might seem. The Morrigi produce a lot for trade, and with trade significantly reduced, that industrial production would be surplus anyway. The individual planets would still produce enough for themselves, but they would lack the goods the other planets made. Industrial capacity wouldn't be a driving factor.

And I already mentioned how the records could have been lost. Khabul was most likely not the only one to attack floating cities, they were obvious. The most prestigeous places to live and the most visible too. Any strike would target them. While we tend to look at the internet and say information will not be lost, it is actually becoming more and more vulnerable. Yes it is technically in more places now, but most of those are not taken care of in the same sense. Only a few servers here and there would cause incredible damage to our databases of important information. The individual databases will slowly wither without the major ones. So a loss of the databases in the floating cities would be a huge blow to a planet's knowledgebase. It might not be bright to keep it there, but we are not talking about critical information like the Void Cutter principle, grav techs or production capabilities. But rather the records of individuals and universities and such. Given the advancement of the Morrigi physical books are bound to have become rather rare, so imagine libraries are gone, and then remove a sort of super Wikipedia (complete university databases plus the general knowledge of our own wikipedia). How long do you tihnk it would take before we would be unaware of 90% of the events leading up to that destruction? The loss of the Library of Alexandria is said to have done as much, the 10% being what was found elsewhere, just like we would search long and hard to find people with information on their own computers to piece history together again. Now imagine this happening 3-4 times and suddenly the loss of information is complete. The Morrigi obviously learned and made sure nothing critical was lost.
Now the argument would be that who would be that careless about History? Well, in times of trouble the written History tends to become less important. So while the Morrigi of pre-'fall' might have been very interested in History, they might have become callous and rather depressed about it after the first fallen cities. But some records were still made since we have learned about Khabul, and obviously other Khans of that age.

All this points to a depressed and troubled culture, but not a Dark Age. Wars were more likely given the lack of general trade (and the most effective way to forestall hostilities is dependable money, such as you get through trade or cooperation) and the lack of good contacts. It would be easier to look at your own holdings and determine that to help them, this and that planets would do very well to include.
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chris0101
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Re: Why did the Morrigi fall from their peak 15,000 years ag

Post by chris0101 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:09 pm

Been away for the past few days.

But even with your argument about it not being a dark age, let's step back and go towards the original question.

The fall of the Morrigi - well, 2 things either happened; it collapsed internally or due to some external force/event/interloper. The Morrigi are probably pretty silent about this sort of thing, if they didn't want to talk about the Screamers, something of this magnitude ...
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Re: Why did the Morrigi fall from their peak 15,000 years ag

Post by fiendishrabbit » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:35 am

Erinys wrote:
chris0101 wrote:I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.


I'm afraid this is not an option. You are simply, factually mistaken. They call it "The Roman Architectural Revolution" for a reason.

Irrigation was not a new idea. Supplying cities and fields with water was not a new idea. But true AQUEDUCTS--literally, the water bridge, not just a stone tunnel or a limestone ditch? Those were a new idea. A Roman idea.

--Arinn


I thought the assyrians made the first aqueducts. Like, 700 years BC. And while definitely not as refined as the roman aqueduct it did include a proper water bridge crossing the Jerwan valley.
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Erinys
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Re: Why did the Morrigi fall from their peak 15,000 years ag

Post by Erinys » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:28 am

fiendishrabbit wrote:I thought the assyrians made the first aqueducts. Like, 700 years BC. And while definitely not as refined as the roman aqueduct it did include a proper water bridge crossing the Jerwan valley.


Nope. Sorry. Just as a ditch is not an aqueduct, neither is a wall or a dam. If you look at the actual design of the Jerwan "aqueduct", you'll see it has features of both. What it lacks is the critical feature that would be relevant: the true arch, which is the solution to a lot of very old engineering problems.

Just because something channels water from place to place does not justify the theft of appropriate credit from the Romans. A lot of people moved water from place to place by various means before the Neo-Assyrians came along, too. If all you need is a channel that takes water from one place to another, you could just as easily give the credit to the Mycenaeans. They built magnificent dams and cut through tons of living rock to drain the Kopaic Basin and fertilize the plains around Orchomenos and Gla, but they were not super high-tech about it.

A lot of problems can be solved with enough brute force and slave labor. Roman engineering was not about brute force.

I like Sennacherib as well as the next girl. Neo Assyrian engineering is impressive, particularly their siege machinery. So was Late Bronze Age engineering, and Greek engineering from the Iron Age through the Hellenistic period--there is a reason that the Morrigi take so many names for Characters and Places from that time period. But in comparison to Roman engineering, all the rest are fighting for second, and it doesn't pay to forget it.

Now we are done with this off-topic digression, and we will all stop arguing with the nice Lore writer.

Seriously, any further OT posts in this vein will be deleted.

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JPThunda
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Re: Why did the Morrigi fall from their peak 15,000 years ag

Post by JPThunda » Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:01 pm

I wonder if the Morrigi society went through a cultural revolution that led to their collapse, kind of like a European-style entitlement society deal that we see in modern times leading to economic collapse in various nations. Maybe they got so big and so prosperous that they thought they could take care of everything, and started down that dark road, spending more on basic "needs" and wants than on innovation and research leading to economic stagnation and some degree of internal strife. Get to that point, and all those lovely random menaces clawing at the door might have been enough to shatter their empire, or maybe some yet unment power they were in conflict with. They're a confederation of independent planets now, afterall, and that makes sense for what you would find after the fall of an empire. Groups that act in generally the same way toward generally the same goal but with enough differences to want to keep their distance.

Also, I know you said not to, but I'm an avid fan of Rome, so I just wanted to interject a short blurb. I've got your back, and it annoys me when people don't give the Romans their due for some of their inventions like the first working steam engine (google search the Aeolipile). That is all.

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Re: Why did the Morrigi fall from their peak 15,000 years ag

Post by Sayeth » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:34 am

JPThunda wrote:I wonder if the Morrigi society went through a cultural revolution that led to their collapse, kind of like a European-style entitlement society deal that we see in modern times leading to economic collapse in various nations. Maybe they got so big and so prosperous that they thought they could take care of everything, and started down that dark road, spending more on basic "needs" and wants than on innovation and research leading to economic stagnation and some degree of internal strife. ...


It really depends mostly on the economy and the type of government, great rises in economy are usually followed by a depression and then the situation gets better and so on. That is very simplified explanation to say the least and many factors are determining how steep the increase or decrease is. We can only speculate as to what may have caused the Morrigi empire to fall but the simple "laziness" does not seem too feasible in my opinion. No matter what time of year it is, there are always people that have brilliant ideas and are interested in science I can't really imagine that everyone would mutually agree that "science" and improvement of life is no longer necessary and "we have everything we want, why bother with anything else?" At no-point in our history have we felt that we have everything and that our life couldn't be better - it is only natural, when our basic needs are satisfied, we move on and start to wish for other needs to be fulfilled and so on - it is an endless process. Nowadays, we don't need to worry about the lack of food or water, we have a great medical care, great housing and it is really hard to feel alone especially if you live in a city - these were things that some people considered (or even still consider in some parts of the world) a luxury while we have our expectations much much higher of what is a luxury.

Morrigi on their peak could only be perceive it the same way, who wouldn't like to live in a floating city? Most of the males definitely would but only very few could afford it, and those that could may still dream of something even more pompous to stand out even more and have their lives as easy and comfortable as possible. I am by no means an expert in history though and I am sorry for my not-so-perfect English but usually there are two ways how to bring down a powerful civilisation to their knees - either by a strong outside influence or by drastically changing internal policies - several Khabuls or introducing new laws that will favor a small portion of people over the majority for example.
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Re: Why did the Morrigi fall from their peak 15,000 years ag

Post by DemoMonkey » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:03 pm

"I can't really imagine that everyone would mutually agree that "science" and improvement of life is no longer necessary and "we have everything we want, why bother with anything else?" "

The civilization that became the Locusts would beg to differ.

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Re: Why did the Morrigi fall from their peak 15,000 years ag

Post by moonsilver » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:49 pm

I thought they had a war with 100's of Sulkka and took huge losses. The sulka particulary were scared of them because of their grav technology in their engines. Am i mistaken about that?

Btw Roman empire never dissapeared it simply became the catholic church :) and still ruled over europe for a long time after the roman empire ended.

Even if culture and scoeties fall apart, the people still exist. They may change their names, create new kingdoms but its all arbitrary. Same groups of people keep ruling throughout history its never really changed. They just find new ways to reinvent themselves so people don't realise. In the end every ruling nation has ruled in the same manner as every one before it. Only difference is, people are much better at it now than they used to be.

Democracy was created to prevent civil wars, by always giving power to the majority to surpress the miniority. IN theory preventing any chance of a rebellion or civil war from occuring. Or at least if it did, it would be hopelessly out matched.

Royal families and emperors were originally the weathliest people in a country, they gave land and power to others, because they knew they couldn't rule alone, hence the feudal system. Feudal system allowed rebellions to occur, quite easy for group of feudal lords to gorup together and wage war on their king. In democracy the wealthiest people are businesss and individuals who run mega corperations. War soon took the form of economic war, rather than a kill everyone war. Businessnes now invade other countries, steal tax money and devalue the other countries currency, that is now how wars are conducted. its not feasible to conquer new land anymore in the world we live in.

Pretty sure the morrigi were wiped out by the sullka, the Black is relatively new in the grand scale of things, there have been many Sulka before him. Someone had to keep them in check before then, that was the morrigi. Not to mention an entire galatic war probalyl got the attention of hte peacekeepers. Empire could have been fractured and divided, its culture then developed over eons by itself as they fled from the sullkka to the edges of the galaxy.

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Re: Why did the Morrigi fall from their peak 15,000 years ag

Post by Azrael Ultima » Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:04 am

I don't think there ever were that many Suul'ka. Anyway, they only fought with two of them, and that was fairly recently.(I think from our real time it hasn't even happened yet)
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Re: Why did the Morrigi fall from their peak 15,000 years ag

Post by GantradiseDracos » Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:15 pm

real men space the living. tell me, good sire, are you employing Via Damasco'ed AI's? Richard says some of them have..nasty senses of humor. as in randomly filling your quarters with sophorific.. sof... knockout gas nasty
anyway, maybe something else happened? a grand menace? suppose something BAD happening with sparky is possible, given they morrigi have "old tales/stories" about it (i believe one of their prime quote was "the old stories are true! it has come again!" or something extremely similar), but that just suggests that someone unfortunate morrigi colony in the distant past or maybe their home-world ran afoul of ole sparky. or, they could of PO'ed the "old enemy"
on second thoughts, given how high tech they used to be, and in prime you could get strong enough to stomp sparky to the curb......massive spatial distortions cut off their colonies from each other, ala back-story of MOO with the orions anti-antarian weapon screwing up hyperspace for millenia? bio-weapon gone horribly wrong? war with a superior/ on-par force? someone worse with kabul of the burning cites? i admit, im planting my epileptic trees here.
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