Why don't the Loa build orbital power collectors?

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nickersonm
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Re: Why don't the Loa build orbital power collectors?

Post by nickersonm » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:19 am

theSmallerFish wrote:Given the NPG can handle gaps below about a micrometre, you can probably make the wise clay as complex and differentiated as you like at the nanometre scale.

Yeah, I imagine grey goo would go through just fine. I assumed that's what wise clay was.

theSmallerFish
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Re: Why don't the Loa build orbital power collectors?

Post by theSmallerFish » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:42 am

nickersonm wrote:
theSmallerFish wrote:Given the NPG can handle gaps below about a micrometre, you can probably make the wise clay as complex and differentiated as you like at the nanometre scale.

Yeah, I imagine grey goo would go through just fine. I assumed that's what wise clay was.


I didn't think that wise clay was that sophisticated (I could be wrong), but if anyone in SOTS does have nano-replicators then I'd assume they could go through an NPG just fine, provided their components were given the right instructions.

A funny thought occurred to me, if wise clay is a conglomeration of replicator machines, surely the ships of the Loa fleet are red goo, not grey goo, its only grey goo if its replicating out of control, with no objective except making more copies.

As I've said before, the Loa may be the only race in SOTS who don't use grey goo. In fact all the other empires in the game are dominated by the frighteningly sophisticated, horrifyingly adaptable, end results of a the uncontained grey goo doomsday scenarios that devoured their respective homeworlds. This 'organic life', has learned how to master interstellar flight, and it's spreading these pink goo replicators across the universe :yell:.

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Re: Why don't the Loa build orbital power collectors?

Post by vaccum_pony » Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:21 am

theSmallerFish wrote:No... just no, in several different ways :shock:.


I'm not going to quote the whole post. You make some very good points except you're forgetting that Loa ships are carrying/contain a LOT of power. You could "write" the atomic arrangement of a Steed in "Wise Clay Binary", but that doesn't allow you to store or convert anti-matter.


theSmallerFish wrote:...all the other empires in the game are dominated by the frighteningly sophisticated, horrifyingly adaptable, end results of a the uncontained grey goo doomsday scenarios that devoured their respective homeworlds.


The grey goo doomsday scenario is great, but just as an aside, the idea was shot down by Drexler himself in 'Unbounding the Future' (the follow-up to 'The Engines of Creation'). It is a cool idea though (just not for the victim).
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theSmallerFish
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Re: Why don't the Loa build orbital power collectors?

Post by theSmallerFish » Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:49 am

vaccum_pony wrote:you're forgetting that Loa ships are carrying/contain a LOT of power. You could "write" the atomic arrangement of a Steed in "Wise Clay Binary", but that doesn't allow you to store or convert anti-matter.


I believe I covered that:
theSmallerFish wrote:
As for sending antimatter through the gate, antimatter is in almost every way identical to regular matter, so a dense and undifferentiated solid could include a dense and undifferentiated chunk of solid antimatter. Of course it would tend to explode on contact with regular matter, but for a fundamental particle, a 2nm gap (500 times smaller than the biggest gaps an NPG can handle) might as well be the Grand Canyon. There is easily enough complexity going on below the micron scale to make a magnetic bottle which could maintain that gap.


At very least it should be possible to send a small brick of antimatter through the pulse gate alongside the fleetcube, that brick could then be retrieved at the far end (assuming it was near enough to be brought out of FTL when the fleet was).

The grey-goo doomsday scenario I was referring to, was the existance of organic life (which I am told by several quite reliable sources exists on at least one planet). Turns out microscopic self-replicators can devour a planet, provided it's an inert rock, and provided they're given a few billion years to work on it. So, impractical (and not very scary), but not impossible, it already happenned once.

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Re: Why don't the Loa build orbital power collectors?

Post by vaccum_pony » Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:55 am

theSmallerFish wrote:I believe I covered that:


That's what I get for reading the forums between meetings.


theSmallerFish wrote:The grey-goo doomsday scenario I was referring to, was the existance of organic life...


Sorry, humor currently cannot be undifferentiated and so it is not possible to send it though the NPG network at this time.
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Re: Why don't the Loa build orbital power collectors?

Post by theSmallerFish » Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:39 am

vaccum_pony wrote:
theSmallerFish wrote:I believe I covered that:


That's what I get for reading the forums between meetings.


theSmallerFish wrote:The grey-goo doomsday scenario I was referring to, was the existance of organic life...


Sorry, humor currently cannot be undifferentiated and so it is not possible to send it though the NPG network at this time.


No need to apologize, it's always nice to have someone to talk to :googly:.

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Re: Why don't the Loa build orbital power collectors?

Post by vaccum_pony » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:14 am

Thinking about it a bit more, I'm not sure what you describe is workable. It's really dependent on what Erinys meant by undifferentiated. An anti-matter version of Wise Clay may be dissimilar enough to cause problems. Perhaps Erinys could enlighten us..?
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Re: Why don't the Loa build orbital power collectors?

Post by ScoSteSal118 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:39 am

She already did, in a different thread:

Erinys wrote:
TheScamp wrote:When the cube is transit, is there an active power source for the Loa to feed on? Is there a generator hiding in there somewhere, or a some sort of storage system to use until it arrives and can morph itself a power plant along with the ship/ships? Just how uniform is the transit cube, anyway?


You can fit a lot of Tritium in the space of a micron. And you can fit a lot of microns in 500 cubic meters of self-aware Wise Clay. The cube is very uniform in transit, but it has the ability to change its shape.

--Arinn


tSF basically got it right on the general model of power generation and how information can be transmitted through the wise clay. Erinys, would you mind clarifying the specific case of incorporating AM into Wise Clay or making Wise Clay out of AM?

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Re: Why don't the Loa build orbital power collectors?

Post by Mekan1k » Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:37 pm

theSmallerFish wrote:
Mekan1k wrote:Matter = Energy = Information.
Energy and matter have set maximum speeds, but information does not.


No... just no, in several different ways :shock:.

LONG STATEMENT

Yes, there is a bare minimum amount of energy required to store data, it is defined by the background radiation of the universe, and that is true.
However- Quantum Entanglement allow two particles to exhibit the same spin/energy levels between the two particles, albet one is spinning in the opposite direction of the other.
This would allow an entity to feed energy in the form of sub-atomic 'spin' to the particle, and by speeding up one you speed up two. There are currently on-going experiments that may allow us, relatively soon, to send information between the particles in the form of change-in-spin. The particles do not seem to observe the light-speed limit on information due to the apparent instantaneous reaction of the particles to each other. (no, we do not know why or how it works, hence the name 'quantum')

An alternate theory- the gates accelerate lazer pulses as lenses, allowing light to be 'lased' at relative FTL.
... It would too work! :P

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Re: Why don't the Loa build orbital power collectors?

Post by BlueTemplar » Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:46 pm

I thought that you couldn't transmit information using quantum entanglement?

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Re: Why don't the Loa build orbital power collectors?

Post by Mekan1k » Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:09 pm

You can, but the information is changed in the process. The current theory is that you use a looped-sequence, and have multiple entangled particles on both ends.
The multiple-particles means that you can have them interact with each other, and force a spin-up on one side, and have the spin affect the other particles, thus changing of the system.
Since observing the system changes it, there is a defined 'base level' of energy that the particles try to be at, specifically the ambient temperature. When observed, the particles lose energy. That energy is what is observed, and gives the values of spin, direction, and so-forth.
Therefore, this system can be used to transmit energy with a relatively simple system.
There is an in-packet of quantum particles, and and out-packet of quantum particles.
Each packet contains several sets of particles that connect between two quantum communicators.
in-packets to communicator 1 have the energy change observed, and the up-down pattern allows for information to be received from communicator 2.
out-packets from communicator 1 are 'spun up', and not altered, to allow for the high-low energy levels on the in-packets of communicator 2.
This system would mean that neither communicator can observe the outgoing signal, but the incoming one is observed.
(a coms officer cannot 'check' what signal was sent out, but can see the 'incoming' signals)
This can be used to transmit energy, albet the scale and number of entangled particles would need to be massive. The 'Transmission' station pushes energy into the entangled particles, and the 'recviver' station keeps the particles in a cooler medium, and the heat radiating off the particles would allow energy to be harvested.
It would require more efficient energy-capture mechanisms than what we have access to now, but it would allow for FTL transmission of energy.

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Re: Why don't the Loa build orbital power collectors?

Post by theSmallerFish » Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:59 pm

Mekan1k wrote:
theSmallerFish wrote:
Mekan1k wrote:Matter = Energy = Information.
Energy and matter have set maximum speeds, but information does not.


No... just no, in several different ways :shock:.

LONG STATEMENT

Yes, there is a bare minimum amount of energy required to store data, it is defined by the background radiation of the universe, and that is true.
However- Quantum Entanglement allow two particles to exhibit the same spin/energy levels between the two particles, albet one is spinning in the opposite direction of the other.
This would allow an entity to feed energy in the form of sub-atomic 'spin' to the particle, and by speeding up one you speed up two. There are currently on-going experiments that may allow us, relatively soon, to send information between the particles in the form of change-in-spin. The particles do not seem to observe the light-speed limit on information due to the apparent instantaneous reaction of the particles to each other. (no, we do not know why or how it works, hence the name 'quantum')

An alternate theory- the gates accelerate lazer pulses as lenses, allowing light to be 'lased' at relative FTL.
... It would too work! :P


Quantum entanglement does not work like that, and sub-atomic spin definitely doesn't work like that (you can change the spin of a particle from 'up' to 'down', or from 'down' to 'up', that's it, you can't make them spin faster).

Quantum entangling two particles means that you will always be able to make reliable predictions about the state of particle A based on measurements of particle B, even if that information is otherwise unknown. Measuring particle A reveals information about particle B, changing particle A does not change particle B.

Example: two particles A and B are entangled, they have opposite spins, and A has one less joule of energy than B, however neither the spins nor the energies of the two particles are known beyond that.

I allow those two particles to become separated by four light years, and then I measure the energy and spin of particle A, it has spin up, and 10J of energy. Therefore I can predict that anyone taking measurements of particle B will find that it has spin down and energy 11J. This is interesting since these particles appear to be unattached, there is no other way I could know the spin of B in advance, and in fact no other way I could get definite information about particle B in less than four years.

If, before making any measurements I were to alter particle A, I would have to take those alterations into account before making predictions about particle B. If I were to add 5J to the energy of A, that changes the information I possess from "particle B has 1J more than particle A" to "particle B has 4J less than particle A". Changing A changes what I know about the relation between A and B, it does not change B. All this applies unless modifying particle A disrupts its entanglement with particle B, in which case I would know nothing about B from observing A (note: this is the most likely outcome).

It might be possible to transmit information using this technique, in the sense that I know the outcome of an experiment that's happening right now (or a close approximation of 'right now'), four light years away. People four light years away are still not able to tell me what happened, I just know what they're going to say.

And incidently, yes we do know how and why it works, quantum means "the smallest possible amount" not "magic" (the film title "A Quantum of Solace" is actually an entirely accurate use of the term quantum, they weren't just stuffing in random science words to make it seem cool).

In the words of Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

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Re: Why don't the Loa build orbital power collectors?

Post by vaccum_pony » Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:21 pm

ScoSteSal118 wrote:She already did, in a different thread:


Cool. I was thinking it leaned heavier on the space magic.
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Re: Why don't the Loa build orbital power collectors?

Post by Mekan1k » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:37 pm

theSmallerFish wrote:
Mekan1k wrote:
theSmallerFish wrote:No... just no, in several different ways :shock:.

LONG STATEMENT

Yes, there is a bare minimum amount of energy required to store data, it is defined by the background radiation of the universe, and that is true.
However- Quantum Entanglement allow two particles to exhibit the same spin/energy levels between the two particles, albet one is spinning in the opposite direction of the other.
This would allow an entity to feed energy in the form of sub-atomic 'spin' to the particle, and by speeding up one you speed up two. There are currently on-going experiments that may allow us, relatively soon, to send information between the particles in the form of change-in-spin. The particles do not seem to observe the light-speed limit on information due to the apparent instantaneous reaction of the particles to each other. (no, we do not know why or how it works, hence the name 'quantum')

An alternate theory- the gates accelerate lazer pulses as lenses, allowing light to be 'lased' at relative FTL.
... It would too work! :P


Quantum entanglement does not work like that, and sub-atomic spin definitely doesn't work like that (you can change the spin of a particle from 'up' to 'down', or from 'down' to 'up', that's it, you can't make them spin faster).

Quantum entangling two particles means that you will always be able to make reliable predictions about the state of particle A based on measurements of particle B, even if that information is otherwise unknown. Measuring particle A reveals information about particle B, changing particle A does not change particle B.

Example: two particles A and B are entangled, they have opposite spins, and A has one less joule of energy than B, however neither the spins nor the energies of the two particles are known beyond that.

I allow those two particles to become separated by four light years, and then I measure the energy and spin of particle A, it has spin up, and 10J of energy. Therefore I can predict that anyone taking measurements of particle B will find that it has spin down and energy 11J. This is interesting since these particles appear to be unattached, there is no other way I could know the spin of B in advance, and in fact no other way I could get definite information about particle B in less than four years.

If, before making any measurements I were to alter particle A, I would have to take those alterations into account before making predictions about particle B. If I were to add 5J to the energy of A, that changes the information I possess from "particle B has 1J more than particle A" to "particle B has 4J less than particle A". Changing A changes what I know about the relation between A and B, it does not change B. All this applies unless modifying particle A disrupts its entanglement with particle B, in which case I would know nothing about B from observing A (note: this is the most likely outcome).

It might be possible to transmit information using this technique, in the sense that I know the outcome of an experiment that's happening right now (or a close approximation of 'right now'), four light years away. People four light years away are still not able to tell me what happened, I just know what they're going to say.

And incidently, yes we do know how and why it works, quantum means "the smallest possible amount" not "magic" (the film title "A Quantum of Solace" is actually an entirely accurate use of the term quantum, they weren't just stuffing in random science words to make it seem cool).

In the words of Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."


The question you need to ask is how is spin of a particle measured.
The spin of a particle cannot be changed- sorry it took so long to respond, I had a long discussion with one of my profs, and I admit I got that wrong. However, the spin can be altered- through it's interaction with a magnetic field.
Physists currently observe the spin of a particle through it's distortion of a magnetic field, and the act of observing changes the properties of a sub-atomic particle.
Properties:
Spin
Temperature (vibration speed)
Mass

Then you need to ask another question- what happens to light when it is lased?
A true laser creates a beam of photons that are sharing the same wavelength- the same quantum state.
Matter will not do this UNLESS the mater is cooled to within a degree or less of 0deg K (This causes matter to break down from fermions into bosons- only achieved with helium-4 so far, but it is in theory possible with any material). This state is the state of Bose-Einstein Condensate (BEC). Matter will, in this state, become undifferentiated, and form into a, for lack of a better term, Boson fluid.
(I am still reading through the books he gave me, so I may need to clarify some things later)
The bosons, being undifferentiated, all are the same temperature, and can occupy the same 'spin' value, and do so, when in this state.

The trick to transmitting information would be to have material that exists in that state AND is quantum entangled with another group of atoms that are also in a BEC, then a small segment of the entangled material is heated- this causes the entanglements to break, and should be viewed as a change in state on the other side of the transmission.
Since it is technically impossible to know what spin the particle has (can be predicted, but not observed) this method takes advantage of the properties of bosons 'sharing' a quantum state, enabling energy to be transferred from one location to another, as the vibrations in atoms that is interpreted as heat are also interfering with the quantum state of said atoms, which can allow the inference of energy being transmitted between the two atoms.
The theory is that if you had, say, two diamonds that were quantum-entangled, and one was shot into space, and the other remained on earth, in magnetic isolation. The one on earth would start to change temperature, as the second diamond entered the earth's shadow, and as the second diamond went to the sunlight the diamond in containment would begin heating up on the atomic scale.

And yes, I know what quantum means, however we as a species do not understand the mechanics behind the cause of quantum entanglement, we only know how to cause it, and detect if it occurs.
Of course this could be completely wrong, but it would allow an interesting method of FTL communication and energy transmission.
BRING ON THE RANTING! :awesome:

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Re: Why don't the Loa build orbital power collectors?

Post by theSmallerFish » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:42 pm

Mekan1k wrote:BRING ON THE RANTING! :awesome:


Breaking the entanglement cannot, by definition, be observed on the other side. The point where the entanglement breaks is the point where you stop being able to tell anything about the far side, including the fact that the entanglement has broken.

You do not control, and cannot effect, the far side of the entanglement, you merely possess knowledge of it.

That said you are clearly very keen to learn about this subject (which is good), and some of the ideas I ended up with when I was learning about it were much stranger, so you've made a better start than I did.

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