Human Intellectual Property and the Human Private Sector

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Ludovsky
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Re: Human Intellectual Property and the Human Private Sector

Post by Ludovsky » Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:42 pm

I was kind of thinking about this recently, about how many of the civilization and nation which some might have qualified as "empires" would always to some level see some form of not only density and size of population and ressources, but also diversity of it.

Even the US might qualify for this, to some level, during the time it really sounded like "the american dream" could indeed happen to all no matter of origin(despite any "hard truths" that might have resulted of whether it was actually the case. I guess the important part was that the impression of such had drawn such a diversity to the country).

Though one can't have functional productive diversity I feel without some level of acceptance and equality(something which make me wonder if that might not have been part of the deal with the Romans and how the cults of conquered populations would often see their divinities being made part of/be absorbed within the roman's own Pantheon in some form if I recall).


Then again, I'm not the one who's actually studied history.

lwarmonger
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Re: Human Intellectual Property and the Human Private Sector

Post by lwarmonger » Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:49 pm

Erinys wrote:Warmonger: the current arrangement of the world's resources, economically and politically, is a state of affairs achieved by very aggression campaigns which have continued for over 400 years. Do not assume that recent history is the result of some sort of "state of nature" or "manifest destiny", and that current laws are the only ones which can produce creativity or innovation. What is, is not all that can be.

Many civilizations have risen and fallen before this one: people innovate when they have population density, population diversity, and active trade networks. Intellectual property laws did not exist or need to exist to produce rapid technological progress and great art in the past, and they will not need to exist to allow the same in the future. So long as the density, diversity and the movement of goods is present, innovation will happen.

--Arinn


I don't assume anything about the state of nature... however given that our industrial society has been created out of certain paradigm's, and our current society has become very oriented on the civilian consumer (as opposed to the nation state), I would assume that a lack of copyright laws or patent protection would result in a shift in R&D back towards the nation state (military/industrial) and university oriented research. That would make sense, as humanity is essentially focusing resources on the industrialization of numerous colony worlds and militaristic competition with other species.

As a thread I feel like we were kind of talking past each other... I was making the case for future innovation focused on the needs of the nation state and/or altruistic groups willing to pay for it (as opposed to the state doing the groundbreaking and then a mass consumer industry picking up that technology and repurposing it for the civilian consumer base), whereas Azrael and others seemed to be making the case that innovation can continue absent property rights. Neither of those arguments really disagrees with each other. I guess the question that really comes out of it is what kind of consumer market exists in Solforce core worlds and who are the primary drivers of servicing that market?

theSmallerFish
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Re: Human Intellectual Property and the Human Private Sector

Post by theSmallerFish » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:37 am

To paraphrase Frank Herbert, it's not the ability to ensure supply that gives you power, it's the ability to disrupt it. Given their ability to disrupt the supply of new ideas just by deciding it's not worth their time to create them, artists, authors, researchers and inventors will always get paid in some manner. After all, if you don't pay them, all you get is their last idea, if you want to see another one you'd better find the cash.

The exact mechanism by which they are paid is a detail which is seldom of great interest to creators (although as always there will be individuals who disagree), so long as they do get paid, and it doesn't disrupt their work. At the moment my single greatest work expense is paying my patent attorney and paying the patent offices, outweighing the cost of actual R&D by an order of magnitude. I would not weep if their cut were reduced, and I didn't have so much paperwork.

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Re: Human Intellectual Property and the Human Private Sector

Post by theSmallerFish » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:50 am

Obviously, I can't speak for anyone else in the creative fields, but I don't do it for the money, I do it because I find the current shape of the world... distressingly primitive, and if I'm honest, because I like to build things. Money is just a means to an end, so long as the lack money does not interfere with my life or with my work, I have no great need to accumulate large quantities of it.

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Erinys
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Re: Human Intellectual Property and the Human Private Sector

Post by Erinys » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:37 am

People are always rewarded for specialized labor with some viable role in the economy. But intellectual property laws did not create Greek sculpture, Roman architecture, medieval mechanization, and the majority of Renaissance painting, sculpture and literature. In fact, if you think about it, the first copyright law was itself an artifact of technological advance, not vice versa. ;)

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theSmallerFish
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Re: Human Intellectual Property and the Human Private Sector

Post by theSmallerFish » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:27 am

I believe (and as a far more knowledgeable historian than I am, Erinys may be able to confirm or deny), that historically a common practice for funding artists, scientists, playwrites etc. was the patronage system. A wealthy individual or organisation gave promising individuals a sum of money in exchange either for the right to exploit subsequent developments, or just for the prestige of being able to say they were patrons of great thinkers and artists (obviously individuals who didn't produce much ended up losing their patrons pretty quickly).

I'd guess intellectual property under SolForce and the Consortiums might work a similar way, organisations give grants to promising individuals and R&D houses. In exchange that organisation gets the benefits of new developments (SolForce does very well out of being the 'patron' of weapons labs), or the prestige of sponsoring the developments ("what do you mean you don't like SolForce? They gave us season 32 of Firefly, and the bionic spleen!" :insane:). Grants are more likely to be forthcoming if the individual or lab has already achieved notable things, and will dry up if they fail to deliver anything noteworthy.

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Erinys
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Re: Human Intellectual Property and the Human Private Sector

Post by Erinys » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:39 am

Every Consortium on old Earth had a system of producing and supporting arts and culture. Like any system it had its defects, as the Consortia itself was essentially the patron, publisher and distributor of creative work; this then placed enormous weight on artists who chose to move and join another meta-nation, often as an act of political protest. The mother of Blasky Yao-Hsiang was such a person, as an example.

Sol Force does continue to fund the arts; the cost is simply buried and abstracted in the maintenance costs of diplomatic and civilian stations. Creative people can still find some support on the more developed colonies as well, and many human creators are adopted by aliens, especially the Liir, Tarka and Morrigi, who enjoy collecting interesting people.

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Ludovsky
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Re: Human Intellectual Property and the Human Private Sector

Post by Ludovsky » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:41 am

Of course, nobody want to be collected by a (quotation mark)liir(quotation mark) reffered to as the Bloodweaver ;)

Though I don't think He would care much when it comes to collecting "Interesting People". ;)
(considering the Pit is probably an example of his habits in this regard)

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Erinys
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Re: Human Intellectual Property and the Human Private Sector

Post by Erinys » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:15 am

He's more interested in what he can turn people into.

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Ludovsky
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Re: Human Intellectual Property and the Human Private Sector

Post by Ludovsky » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:16 pm

Now this is just making me dread to see what else awaits me in the Pit beyond what's already there and deranged prisoners.

Considering what he's achieved with the Zuuls, I'm kind of afraid to see what he'd come up with with already "sentient" species(though sentiences I'm not sure of being something that'd last long under his hands...).

Azrael Ultima
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Re: Human Intellectual Property and the Human Private Sector

Post by Azrael Ultima » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:48 pm

The Zuul were sentient, he made them sapient. So yes, sentience does last.

Wouldn't be surprised if sapients ended up irretrivably insane at 99% odds, though.
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Erinys
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Re: Human Intellectual Property and the Human Private Sector

Post by Erinys » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:40 pm

Indeed. You see a lot of that in the Pit.

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