A thought on the Proteans

[Catfish]

Well some enrgy weapons might not be very practical with biotech. There is some stuff you do not want inside your body. (Antimatter springs to mind, as does hot plasma, neutrons, positrons, and gravitons).

To be fair though, you don't really want any of these things in your spaceship either, ideally speaking!

It really depends on the limits of Protean "flesh", I guess. If they can form organic replicas of the containment structures required to hold these things, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to use them in much the same way races with conventional technology do. They don't seem particularly more vulnerable to energy weapons than other ships.

Still, it does seem like a lot of effort to go to when you can just hurl chunks of yourself at people.

[The_Founder]

Still, it does seem like a lot of effort to go to when you can just hurl chunks of yourself at people.

The effort is worth it if the peoples can just fire up a deflector or gravshield to block anything you throw at them.

Well some enrgy weapons might not be very practical with biotech. There is some stuff you do not want inside your body. (Antimatter springs to mind, as does hot plasma, neutrons, positrons, and gravitons). That is not to say that the proteans can't have enrgy weapons. There would just be lot of problems to solve first.

Any anti-ship weapon is impossible with human/liir/hiver/tarka/zuul/morrigi biotech. As is building organic ships with FTL in the first palce. Or well anything beyond putting brains in yars.

If the proteans have no problem with building organic ships with FTL Drives and all (wich require HUGE amounts of powers to begin with), they have no problem putting Antimater/Plasma/Neutrons into them in a save way.
If you continue to asume from what human biotech can do, you only end up with: "Protean ships are impossible". Every single time.

[wingren013]

I was talking more along the lines of the radiation, super-high temperatures, and gravitational distortions that accompany said things. Proteans do not build ships. They are ships.

[The_Founder]

I was talking more along the lines of the radiation, super-high temperatures, and gravitational distortions that accompany said things. Proteans do not build ships. They are ships.

What way do we compensate for those things in human/liir/loa ships? Asume the Proteans have a Biotech answer for that problem too!
Compared to the Proteans, all other life is squishy. Ships are pieces of Metal with a bunch of small, fragile lifeforms in them. When those people learned how to protect squishy humans effectively from radiation, then Proteans clearly are able to do the same for thier much bigger, much more resilient shipsized body.

Again, if you asume that Biotech never could do certain stuff based on what Liir Biotech can and cannot do, then Protean ships are simply impossible.
I have a few Shipcrews that are willing to show you the scorchmarks where their ships where hit by Proteans, so Protean ships are evidently possible in the Universe of SotS 2. As such they are equally likely to figure out how to put a Organic HCL or Plasma Cannon into thier ships, as squishy humans are.

[Ludovsky]

Considering I'd already given a possibility, let me answer again why my thought:

Who said anywhere that proteans would -only- use biotech?

And if they are ships technically speaking themselves, especially ones with very mutable body.... what says that what they cannot mimic with their biotech and bodies, they cannot graft cybernetically to themselves?

[wingren013]

There are certain facts of biology that cannot be overcome with technology. Hard radiation messing up genetic code for example. Thats not to say proteans would entirely lack energy weapons, lasers would be comparatively easy to make biologically. Also biotech would be unable to replicate everything. Their are some artificial materials that simply have no biological equivalent. Seeing as sotsverse life is carbonbased (likely due to the gardeners) there are certain limitations that cannot be overcome. Different limitations also apply to all alternative forms of life.

[ScoSteSal118]

on the radiation thing:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 094642.htm
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0025092
and that's not counting the fact that proteans are highly advanced biotech specifically designed to do special things like withstand stellar radiation indefinitely. Also, who says that biological structures cannot be designed that would attach with such artificial materials?

[Ludovsky]

A human being can take a sword in hand after all.

It just happen that in a protean's case, this sword might very well be a fullblown heavy combat laser straped to/inside/around it's very much mutable body(afaik).

[Catfish]

The effort is worth it if the peoples can just fire up a deflector or gravshield to block anything you throw at them.

Sure, just like it's sometimes worth it for Loa to use their high-tech smart material to make cannonballs. However, their technological base is not really geared towards doing so.

I kind of like the idea of Proteans ripping bits off off ships and absorbing them though.

[DarkCecilo]

The Proteans might work like Orks from Warhammer 40k. Orks infest a world, grow, conquer everything (Or die). Then when they want to move to a new world. They throw "Roks" at FTL Speeds to seed a new world with Ork Spores. Those spores grow orks and the cycle continues. (Technically larger Ork hordes do have FTL capable ships but they seem to enjoy the rok method)

Not to say Proteans are exactly the same. But what if they don't use FTL capable ships at all. What if they just seed the galaxy with themselves. Grow. Foster life, then leave with a few protecting "ships" behind, continuing the cycle.

[The_Founder]

There are certain facts of biology that cannot be overcome with technology.

Tell that to the roaches & insects please. I wait on this side of reality while you do^^
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockroach#Hardiness

Seriously, live exists in areas with thousands of tons of water pressure. There is life that resists 100+ degree Celcsius. There is life that just metabolises other stuff then oxigen.

And as ScoSte pointed out:
Just being in space subjects you to masssive amounts of hard radaiation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_rays, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_radiation#Composition_and_power). Without tall the filtering and protection the Sun would make life impossible on this planet we call earth!

Their are some artificial materials that simply have no biological equivalent.

And THAT is where your though process fails. By that very theory, Proteans could never put a Fusion Powerplanet into thier ships and thus could never even archeive FTL. They do, hence your asumption is wrong.
You have accept that for everything human/tarka/liir/morrig/zuul/hiver/loa Steel Technology can do, Protean Biotechnology has an answer.
And even if it would not be feasible, they just develop a Cybernetic graft made of Steel technology to do the job!

Also fun facts:
You are aware that bones and teeth are a non-organic composite material, created by a very organic process? So wich Material do you think are not possible for any specially designed organic process?

[ScoSteSal118]

Founder, actually the point I was making is that for proteans to exist/live in space as they do (for long if not indefinite amounts of time) the stellar radiation can't provide an insurmountable obstacle to life. In the context of earth, that protection is provided not by organic structure but by the inorganic atmosphere, whereas the proteans' existence shows that organic structures are capable (at least in this setting) of dealing with such radiation (and the links that I put up showed that life can adapt to survive and thrive in absurd levels of radiation irl anyway).

No, proteans are not shown anywhere to have FTL or to have fusion powerplants (btw, they could have FTL by some means that doesn't require traditional powerplants). He has to accept your assertion "for everything human/tarka/liir/morrig/zuul/hiver/loa Steel Technology can do, Protean Biotechnology has an answer" ONLY IF YOU BOTH FIRST ASSUME THAT THE PROTEANS WILL BE A PLAYABLE RACE, WHICH IS THE QUESTION CURRENTLY UNDER DISCUSSION.

To clarify (since this post of mine is overall rather negative) it seems to me that your point about technological cybernetic grafts is sound.

about your "fun facts," no, bones and teeth are "organic" materials in that they are made up of largely carbon-based compounds and produced by a living organism (standard definition of "organic" in chemistry terms).


To reiterate, I agree that proteans could very well be a playable race, I just don't want this discussion muddled with badly-flawed arguments for that position.